The left has no heroes

Posted By Uncle Jimbo

UPDATE: Video of the event too dangerous for High School kids to see.

Apparently the left doesn't have any heroes, they believe that anyone in or out of uniform who is not protesting or telling tales of atrocities reminiscent of Jenjis Khan, is simply a tool of the vast right-wing conspiracy. In the La La land inhabited by the liberals in Minneapolis the voices of our heroes cannot be heard unless countered by the progressive voices of the anti-war crowd, and even then they are not suitable for High School children. I mean God forbid they gain a positive view of our military or hear that brave deeds have been done in support of Bush's illegal war.

The National Heroes Tour is in Minneapolis today for a number of events, however we will not be visiting Forest Lake High School because the right of whiny left-wing buttheads to censor the troops out weighs the right of American students to hear from and meet the folks who have risked their lives for the freedoms we all enjoy. This is Pete Hegseth's High School and he had personally arranged for a non-partisan event where students could hear from the vets and ask them questions about their service. This so offended the delicate sensibilities of the usual suspects that they began hassling the Principal and threatening protests.

Steve Massey, the school principal, said the decision to cancel was prompted by concerns that the event was becoming political rather than educational and therefore was not suitable for a public school.

He said the school had received several phone calls from parents and others, some of whom indicated that they may stage a protest if the event took place.

"The event was structured to be an academic classroom discussion around military service. We thought we'd provide an opportunity for kids to learn about service in the context of our history classes," Massey said. "As the day progressed, it became clear that this was becoming a political event ... which would be inappropriate in a public setting.

The only politicization of the event came from the anti-military activists and their need to censor any message that shows the military and the war in anything but a negative light. So as usual the left has decided that they will shout down anyone who dares to believe that, like the vast majority of Americans, the military is our most-trusted institution. They know that if the students are exposed to these brave patriots they will think well of them and maybe even support their mission. That is anathema to them and so they began agitating and sadly the Principal caved. The very idea that the troops espouse a message that is somehow inappropriate is a sad commentary on the mental processes of these people, but sadder yet is that the leadership of a public school would favor their deranged yammerings over straight talk from our heroes.

Comments

[Old Tanker]

I saw this linked over at MM's. That's pretty sad that Pete's own high school would do this to one of their own...pathetic really.

[defendusa]

Apparently, I need to start singing my Screaming Monkey Syndrome song. Damn it, UJ. This just totally sucks. I think the problem really is such in la-la-land that any exposure to all that is actually real and good(gasp, from the military, no less) and not fabricated from the likes of the left's (non)reality is what scares them. One of the kids might actually come to know a calling. As did Marcus Lutrell, David Bellavia and Pete Hegseth and many more. Thank God for people like those veterans. I know, they pshaw the word hero, but damn it, they are shining examples of all that is right and good in this Country.

Screaming Monkeys in their caves,
all night waiting to rant and rave
No matter to the heroes that we know
We'll reap the benefits they continue to sow
It matters not how the liberals spew
For heroes and patriots outnumber you
How sad that you have no clue
Someday, monkeys you'll get your due!
Return to your caves
reality has come to call
As long as Blackfive remains steadfast
And Uncle Jimbo's freefly blasts
as long as we have breath at all,
you will eventually take your fall.

(Screaming Monkey Syndrome poem revised for Vets for Freedom Tour)

[Rooster]

I hope that their kids, when they turn 18, decide to decide for themselves. I hope their kids go seek out the advice of a military recruiter. I hope their kids join up on the spot and within weeks are shipped off to basic training or boot camp. I hope they have long, distinguished careers as officers — non-commissioned and otherwise — in the Marine Corps or US Army.

And I hope it either 1) awakens an honest and sincere respect and admiration for all the men and women of our military, or 2) drives them bat-shit-insane wondering “where did we go wrong?”

[ooogaboooga]

Why the crying? The military already has plenty of access to schools via the No Child Left Behind policy.

[defendusa]

oogabooga- fukking loser!

[TAM]

Maybe a few kind,and reasoned comments to this principal would help him inderstand how many of us would have liked to see him stand up against this type of coercion.

Principal Steve Massey
651-982-8401

[ooogaboooga]

defendusa, oh my I'm hurt.

But let's be honest here, Vets for Freedom is a politically motivated group.

Besides, the schools here have had plenty of troops speak to students in the last couple years, especially MN Guard members. But they've done so on an individual basis, not brought forth via a "group" such as this, who has a clear political agenda...

[tankerbabelc]

Can't think of anything "polite" to say to this. Dang it! This is just so bloody wrong.

Will DEFINITELY see you all in Nashville on Saturday.

[Just a Civilian]

UJ:

What time are you folks going to be at the Legion? Like to bring my sons over to meet the men.

[Deltabravo]

Oogie, you're everywhere with your idiocy. Politically motivated group? How about just trying to get THEIR experience out in the open because your MSM will not tell the whole truth. But by all means, do shut down freedom of speech. Typical of the leftards.

Why are they so scared of an honest, open and free sharing of ideas?

Pathetic of the principal to disrespect one of his school's most noted alums.

Don't kid yourself, ooger. The left has untrammelled access to the students. They just don't want any balance to the toxic pap they force feed the inmates of our public school system.

[Pat in MN]

On behalf of all Minnesota patriots, I apologize for this outrage. For some, free speech does not apply when there's a positive message about the military to be heard. I'm disgusted.

[ooogaboooga]

I don't get it? How is someone's free speech being trampled? Why should a school be a forum for this in the first place?

it take 2 seconds perusing the webpage to see how political this group is. But since they happen to have the same ideology as yourselves, no one around here cares to admit it.

I suppose if Iraq Veterans Against the War wished to speak, there would be no crying around here? rofl.. we all know the answer to that one.

[Larry Sheldon]

I think i is important to remember that Minnesota HAS patriots and has for a long time.

But they, like many others, are still being buried by a noisy few.

Impotence is power.

[concretebob]

Sadly this not a reflection of the pitiful lives the leftists lead, having no heoes or anyone to look up too except the odd commie guerilla thug.
It's not the fact that they have a differing opinion on the way our civilian authorities have handled the providing of security to the Iraqi people so they can go about the business of establishing some form of government which allows the people of Iraq to make their own decisions.
No, sadly, this is about the size of the brain, and the cajones, of the principal of this high school. Apparently they are smaller than ooga booga umma jumma, or whatever the idiot calls himself.
Heroes speaking to students, while others exercise the right to disagree, a right protected by those heroes, is about as American as you can get. Apparently, that fact escapes the principal.
See you guys in Fayetteville and DC.

[Cindy]

The DU and Michael Moore and IVAW were responsible for this. Local MN website True North (www.looktruenorth.com) has a contributor on the bus and is all over this story.

This story is going to backfire on those who were against it badly.

Oh and ooogaboooga - look in the mirror. Just because these brave men and women DON't agree with your view on the war does not mean that they are any more (or less) political than you. Principal Massey agreed to what information Pete Hegseth and his people were going to cover. He was confident that the VFF weren't the political ones. It was the protesters that were going to turn the event political and who were going to disrupt the school day....

Cindy

[Old Tanker]

ugly bugger, I just perused their website

Here is their mission statement;

Vets for Freedom is a nonpartisan organization established by combat veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Our mission is to educate the American public about the importance of achieving success in these conflicts by applying our first-hand knowledge to issues of American strategy and tactics in Iraq.

They are a political group because they want to make sure we achieve success?? That would imply there is a political party that doesn't want success....oh wait, thanks for clearing that up.

[Old Tanker]

BTW ugly,

IVAW put's people out there that are complete liars and verifiable fabricators. Of course I wouldn't want that in my kids school, would you??

[ooogaboooga]

Tanker, skip the mission statement. Read a little deeper, such as the blogs. pretty obvious.

like I said, bring em in, just not in political groups. We've had plenty of vets speak that dont have a political viewpoint to spin.

This isn't too difficult of a concept, but appears to be for most around here.

flame away. Oh and the petty name calling, my that really hurts. next will come the threat of force. Such is the MENTAL mindset of so many.

[David M]

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the - Web Reconnaissance for 03/25/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.

[Gary-LetFreedomRing]

I've posted about this, too, sarcastically titling the post "Profiles In Political Courage'.

[Old Tanker]

oogie,

If you'd like, you can make that interpretation about ANY veterans group. What would you say to the American Legion? I am a Legion member, I have a political view point and the Legion supports victory in Iraq. Would you shut us down too?

[Rich Casebolt]

Booger ...

... it was reported in 2004, that between 5% and 25% of the delegates to the Democratic National Convention were also members of the teachers' unions.

Those "political operatives" ... far more activist than Vets for Freedom ... get access to our kids in the schools EVERY DAY!

Therefore, the objections of you and you fellow-travelers in myopia simply don't wash ...

... face it, what you want is divide-and-conquer, in order to maintain your control over the narrative presented to these kids.

You just don't want the alleged "competition" to ruin part of your racket for imposing soft, cuddly fascism upon us all ... by demonstrating to these kids that there is more to the story than what you and your political allies want them to see.

[dnice]

Another example of public education making men without chests (see CS Lewis "Abolition of Man").

The result is not very surprising but totally unsat - Pete's own high school too- WTF?

[vet66]

The left conveniently and predictably overlook the free speech violations that take place continuously in our institutions of lower learning.

These leftist anarchists chain themselves to recruiting offices and throw blood at catholics during Easter mass hiding behind their freedom of speech. Then they demand PEW, etc. grants to pay for their hate of the society that nurtures them as they disregard the Solomon ammendment.

The sad but true fact is that they deny freedom of speech, right to assembly, and destruction of property to anyone who disagrees with them.

It is time we started holding them accountable for their actions.

[decolores]

I am happy to say that this kind of stuff does not happen in the rural area of southern Illinois. At our school, when our service men arrive home, we hold a high school assembly where everyone cheers them and thanks them for their service. Our high school graduates about 30-40 seniors per year. There will be at least 3-8 graduating seniors that will enter the service each year. Within the community, our opinions may vary as to the wisdom of war, but the support of our community has not failed those that have served. Support the community by supporting the men and women who represent them in uniform.

[Valerie]

I'd have more sympathy for the principal if it were an elementary school, but this is a high school, where we are supposed to be raising adults. It could have been very instructive.

Some people seem to assume that support for the GWOT is the special province of conservatives, and not liberals. This is not true. http://eustonmanifesto.org/?page_id=132 Leftist is not the same thing as liberal.

[Laughing Wolf]

Hmmmm. Well, if nothing else this has given the students a start contrast for comparison: duty, honor, and courage as exemplified by those who have served and came to speak openly and honestly versus the arrant and abject cowardice (moral, intellectual, and otherwise) of principal Massey and the others who caved to a few phone calls. A contrast between those who have put their lives on the line for freedom of speech, and those who lack not only the testicular fortitude to do same but any allegiance to or understanding of said freedom. Feh.

LW

[Laughing Wolf]

Okay, stark not start.

Also, please do not pick, eat, or feed the booger. Doing so is just gross, and only encourages yet more moronic mucus in the comments...

LW

[Some Soldier's Mom]

VFF is not a political organization simply because someone with differing views says so or because they support the battles in Iraq and Afghanistan -- which, I might remind ooga were authorized by the overwhelming votes of members of both the Republican and Democratic parties.

But even IF you could twist your way to believing that VFF was somehow espousing a political point -- even political speech is an opportunity to learn and represents the ULTIMATE expression of free speech. It strikes me as so illogically odd that the left defines "free speech" as the public pronouncement of ideas with which they concur and deem it an "abuse" if it contains ideas with which they differ. And in case ooga and his kind haven't figured it out yet, not speaking about the wars and the war experience will not make the wars go away.

If those objecting parents and others were truly sure that there was an agenda being promoted with which they did not agree, the principal would certainly have better discharged his responsibilities of educating the children by inviting those with an opposing view to come hear Pete and the other Heroes speak and to counter those experiences with their own -- perhaps tales from the commune and the picket lines?

But perhaps the principal and the objecting persons are confused about what constitutes education, free speech and democracy these days. It strikes me that those opposed to the VFF members speaking had no real intention of promoting education, free speech or democratic ideals -- they simply wished to suppress free speech, thwart democratic ideals and covertly promote their own political views by silencing others.

[davenp35]

Forest Lake Area Senior High
Dr. Steve Massey - Principal
smassey@hs.forestlake.k12.mn.us
or smassey@forestlake.k12.mn.us

Forest Lake Area Schools
Bill Bresin, School Board President
21363 Inwood Ave. N.
Forest Lake, MN 55025
Term Expires 1/7/08
bbresin@forestlake.k12.mn.us

Forest Lake Area Schools
District Office
6100 N 210th St
Forest Lake, MN 55025
E-Mail: feedback@forestlake.k12.mn.us

[Doc63]

Well that sucks... looking forward to seeing you in DC Gents!

[The Wolf]

Apparently, those up in MPLS are calling this a complete political group (VFF, that is):

"Today's talk-radio chum: the Vets for Freedom Heroes Tour was scheduled to stop at Forest Lake High School, but the Strib says the principal "abruptly canceled" the visit because protesters could turn an "academic discussion" political. "I think it's extremely unfortunate that a school would bow to the political pressure of outside groups and not bring in a veterans organization," says the Forest Lake alum who founded the group. Problem is, the Vets for Freedom IS overtly political. The group was organized to buttress support for the Iraq War and is on a national bus tour promoting that cause. Pro-war Rep. Michelle Bachmann was also expected to appear. The Strib can't find a potential protester to talk to, but the PiPress quotes a sympathetic school board member concerned that no anti-war groups or politicians could attend the event: "It appears like it turned from a discussion about the war to a political rally."

Find this at:
http://www.minnpost.com/dailyglean/2008/03/25/1257/catch-and-release-and-catch

Wolf

[concretebob]

After reading a post on Michelles blog where Just A Grunt left a message for Massey which consisted of Toby Kieth's "American Soldier", I felt obligated to continue that theme.
I left him a partial message which consisted of the refrain from ("Brought to You Courtesy of) The Red, White and Blue"
"Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,
and the Statue of Liberty is shaking her fist..."

interspersed with assorted comments ranging from:
"Have you ever heard of free speech?"
to
"I think you need to reconsider"
to
"That man graduated from that school, you idiot"
I feel much better, now.

[Kat-Missouri/USA]

You know what is really sad about this?

I remember my uncle telling me about how soldiers and sailors came to his school to talk about the war effort during WWII. No one thought it was "political" or some sort of taboo subject to have that discussion, or an entire assembly around the event. No one thought that "heroes" were a bad influence on children.

That year, my Uncle's Boy Scout troop sold the most war bonds and my uncle won an award for having sold the most. He was 14 in 1944. In California.

This world is a sad place. Even if someone were to mention supporting the war, what the h-e-l-l difference does it make? Where is it wrong to talk about supporting your nation, supporting her troops?

Except in a nation that is no longer "one nation" under anyone because people have decided they aren't responsible for anything the other side does that it disagrees with even if their own actions (like 10 years of sanctions, bombing Iraq, UNMOVIC, WMD and Iraq liberation act) led to this war.

This country is full of pansies. It is a miracle we haven't been over run by some two-bit tyrant in the last couple decades. Most of the citizens in this nation would bow down in chains and kiss his bloody boot for the privilege of breathing one more minute.

[texastwostep]

The decision by the Minnesota school to cancel the VFF appearance there is appalling.

It's also very predictable on the part of the linguine-limbed left.

It's also in fact a boon to the VFF's cause. Would Sergeant David Bellavia have been invited on the "Mike Gallagher Show" today had it not happened?

Three cheers for Vets for Freedom and their gallant tour of the country on that bus.

Be sure to catch an upcoming tour stop:

Wednesday, March 26
Des Moines, IA

Thursday, March 27
Kansas City, KS

Friday, March 28
St. Louis, MO

Saturday, March 29
Nashville, TN

Sunday, March 30
Fort Campbell, KY

Sunday, March 30
Evansville, IN

Monday, March 31
Louisville, KY

Thursday, April 3
Columbia, SC

Friday, April 4
Charlotte, NC

Saturday, April 5
Fayetteville, NC

Sunday, April 6
Virginia Beach/Norfolk, VA

Tuesday, April 8
Washington, DC

Wednesday, April 9, 2008
New York, NY

[Subsunk]

Posted by: Old Tanker | March 25, 2008 at 10:17 AM

Now that's funny. OT, you made my day.

Subsunk

[Alwaysoutthere]

I respectfully submit for your review, information I have ran across in the last year or so years. This is in response to the LEFT HAS NO HEROS and the Monkey poem. Also I apologize for the length of this expo in advance. And finally –hell yes, Vets for Freedom are a politically motivated stunt. The gov is attempting to counter the Winter Soldier, www.ivaw.org no doubt about it.
As with all things in life, take what is good and leave the rest. No person is 100% correct, 100% of the time. I don’t claim to have the answers but I can with great confidence say that 98% of all human problems is communication based. I also know that metaphorically “what you see depends on where you stand”.
The apparent "anti-military" parents are not protesting your honor and respect, in fact if you talk to them one on one, as I have dared to do, you will find them in great reverence.
They are protesting and attempting to protect their children from becoming a statistic. CBS News has the young soldiers offing themselves at alarming rates, 120 week, in 2005. If you run the numbers, 17,000 is a fair number since 2003. Obviously the VA is failing, if not failed. I am trying to verify if it is set up as I was told, as a "discretionary spending" budget, not meaningful foundation. This means money is tight and not always there.
A very young man I talked to told me that he was aware of military grade thermate being found in WTC dust and metal samples and do not trust the "government" anymore. Since he used my own term, THERMATE and not “invisible planes” or “drones” or “space weapons”, he got my attention. I am still verifying this to the best of my abilities, and it does appear some scientists have done quite a bit of technical analysis. Being an Ordnance Officer I do understand the implications. ww.ae911truth.org and www.wtc7.net There are more but I will spare you. The young 16ish year old “techie” challenged me, he said if you are truly brave, you will look for yourself, and not believe the politicians. He was really shaken. I assured him it was not the "government" and promised to look at it, which I have. Obviously, had I thought there was no validity of the information from this surprising young source, I would have left it out of this blog. Had I been a man, I doubt he’d of spoken to me due to fear.
I don't take anti-war protesters personal. To call them "liberal" and "left" is only an easy stereo type. I dare say to call the ‘monkeys” is a dehumanizing defense. Mix that in with their already palpable fear (further on), you’d seem quite offensive indeed, after all a monkey is easily eliminated. Where is the intellectual rigor in name calling? The ones I spoke to love the American soldier but believe the military is being misused by the civilian leadership, both right(Rep) and left (Dem). They tell me democracy is "bought" at that level. I find it hard to argue with that.
They don't like that the "terrorist" watch list has grown to 917,000+ names, is growing by 20,000 names a month. The lady who spoke to me concerning this issue was visibly shaken and exclaimed authors and even former American military Generals are on the watch list, "for Christ sake". I said, no shit? And went and found some info myself. http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/watchlistcounter.html
I started thinking I had a sign on my head, which read, “tell me your deep dark fears”. I think in reality they were attracted my service and confidence. They viewed me as ‘authority” and accessible, of which most military people are not. The military is a pretty closed world. And since you see in others what you see in yourself, well, need I say more? Communication is our biggest challenge. The civilians don’t know the military terms but they do have something to say.
Another woman, who turned me onto the video at the end of this blog, complained that "Blackwater" has in it's billion dollar contract to be able to operate on American soil. She honestly believes this "quasi-military" force violates our founding documents and principles of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Her and others honestly believe, that our open and free society is shutting down, not unlike what happened in Germany before WWII, in Italy and to a lesser or less impressive extent, in Chile. They say Blackwater (and many other paramilitary) is like the brown shirts of Germany and black shirts of old, not answerable to the PEOPLE but to a throne sitter empowered by a weak and spineless Congress. They feel vulnerable. She passionately told me that it is not ok that a “quasi-military” entity can come a sweep you from your home without legal representation. I corrected her terminology; I informed her the correct term was paramilitary. She was the first I heard about why she was upset that the State Department stepped in to stop the prosecution of Blackwater and the 17 dead Iraq civilians fiasco. In her mind, it was her last “protection” from the brown shirts. I feel sorry for her, but the fear is there, regardless of what I can do or say otherwise. It also occurred to me I could not guarantee all men have good intentions, as is being required, of this unbalanced situation.
The ones I talked to know that the military is a war machine, which destroys and kills, they are disturbed that they are being used in "police" like actions, police meaning “civilian” arena. They informed me about the John Hopkins epidemiologists, only "group" to use genuine scientific methods of research, have put the Iraq civilian death toll over 660,000 last year, not all due to violence, but due to water, food and shelter issues. They know 4.5 million Iraq people left and are refugees, penniless in a foreign land. I have to be honest, I was not aware of these numbers (or the combat vets suicides) myself and I find them of concern.
They think "nation building" is best done by statesman, humanitarian workers, not American military (and other soldiers of fortune) with overwhelming force as their main tool. I read the same complaint within this blog.
I even had an old Marine tell me of the old Marine Generals who refused the doctrine of "Urban Warfare", I thought he was hitting on me. He said these great men of war and strategy, were also accomplished in the art of state and understood freedom. He explained they were “closer” to the founding fathers than we are today. He said that the generals knew once the battle reached the neighborhood, they had already failed. He explained it was an honor and moral issue, not to kill that which you are fighting for, civilians, civil society, humanity, all that is good in the world? I think the old geezer helped me understand why the Marine Corp seems to have drug it’s feet not wanting to adopt the doctrine of Urban Warfare and the "purple" model or the JTF we are rolling into fully. Is it the residual effect of these men’s leadership? These great men of war are now gone, all having died in the last 20-30 years. That old geezer really got me thinking. He did not know about transformation or the JTFs.
About a year ago, I was in civilian clothes again and had pretty long conversation with a 30 something man, with a wife and a baby. They both talked talk to me about something I do not even follow, politics. He was breathless, explaining to me that “incredibly” dangerous legislation has been passed since 911, he decried to me, and frankly it sort of unsettled me out to hear this too. I can not exactly sum up the excitement, but it was close to this: Your Habeas Corpus, Posse Comitatus and Bill of Rights has been revoked, not to mention that piece of paper, the Constitution, is all but used as toilet paper on the Hill and in the House. Like most (but not all) people I talk to, they were neither Dem nor Rep and said the two parties are a useless joke. Then the seemingly nice woman scolded me for not “defending the Constitution as per my oath”. Now that sort of pissed me off, but I am big person, I shrugged it off. However, in all honestly when I got over it, they did light a fire in under my ass to look into that which they spoke about. I found plenty of Constitutional scholars, former military and just ordinary people writing, talking and creating documentaries about these legislations. The most offense and cloaked in Semantic deceptions appears to be the US Patriot Act, The Military Commissions Act, Home Grown Terrorist something and other Act and there are more, but I got the gist myself.
The anti-war protesters I talked to complained that anyone can be locked away without legal representation until the "war on terror" ends. They don't believe in the big bad Islamofascist wolf. They think there is something wrong yet, with the story of 911 considering the thermate and all. I eventually met more than just the 16 year old who tried to "warn" me about "911".
A business graduate I spoke to said the same corporations profiting of the wars, control American television network “programming” too, from yet one more up in a parent company. I haven’t completely flushed this out, but I do know there are only 4 companies controlling 100% of the US media in a meaningful way. That much you can get on a quick google search. I've tried to look at the entanglements of GE, he said start there. I've not been successful.
Later in my mind, I mixed the various conversations in my mind and the alchemy is this: They want the men and women of the military to get a perspective on the Art of State and Freedom as per our founding PRINCIPLES (at least the old geezer does). They want you to check out 911, especially the thermate angle not all the disinformation (at least the young “techie” does). They fear their government (at least this 30 something couple and many others do) and they do love you, in the most profound way.
In the end I concluded they are being good American’s questioning and studying their government. Shit, they knew more than me. No one has all the answers, not even them, or me or even you.
Here is as bad as it gets. I don’t think she is 100% correct, and you probably will not get thorough it without being offended, but it shows you how palpable the fear is for some of our civilian population.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
Alwaysoutthere

[Steve O.]

Well;

It seems to be that Mr. Massey is a spine-less worm.

Plain and simple. Oh but Heaven forbid we try to protest some anti-war rally. We'd get locked up.

[ST333]

Ridiculous. This is reminiscent of the wing nut parents in Colorado trying to prevent the bronze statue of Navy Cross recipient SEAL Danny Dietz (First KIA during Operation Redwing) from being dedicated because he had his gun (at rest)in the pose they were using of him. The very same reason it was appropriate that statue was erected is the the very same reason the Vets for Freedom should have been heard, to show our future generations what true heroes are and the sacrifices they are willing to make on this country's behalf. The dopes on the left act as if they were there as recruiters. Absolutely shameful on their part.

[ooogaboooga]

Rich, no sweat for you. You can homeschool your kids all you want and brainwash them with religion and skip science all together. It's rather common in the bible belt. Of course you end up with a blubbering christianist that can only recite bible verses but that's a whole different strategy.

To whomever asked about the VFW- no I have no problems with the VFW organization. As a matter of fact I am in one twice a month. But this is an organization that has been around for a long long time and everyone is aware of their stance. The last couple of years has seen an explosion of "patriot" groups that are nothing more than fronts for political agendas. And this one is no different once one digs a little further.

Again, many members of the forces have spoken in schools around here. They simply come as themselves, not a "group" of some sort. This isn't that hard to figure out folks.

This is what America has become. Remember, we are under the leadership of a "uniter" as he likes to call himself. The results speak for themselves.

[Kat-Missouri/USA]

Thursday, March 27
Kansas City, KS

I respectfully correct this. At this time, VFF is in Kansas City, MO on March 26 at the Liberty Memorial WWI museum for a town hall and book signing at 7pm. I'll be there representing thedonovan.com (castle arrggh) and hoping for a few minutes of interview time.

The March 27 event in KCK has been removed from the website(I believe its a closed event).

Always way the hell out there and booger...

Paranoia strikes deep. Into your mind it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid.
Step out of line, the man come and take you away

[Kat-Missouri/USA]

Dozens of students skip school to hear Vets for Freedom

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S389680.shtml?cat=1

[Alwaysoutthere]

ooogabooga, was that just your knee jerk reaction or did you actually watch the video?

Alwaysoutthere

[jordan]

Well I'm glad to hear some of the students skipped, and got to hear them anyway. It's par for the course that our schools and society now believe the military is a political party, rather than an institution of the U.S. government to be wielded by the executive, regardless of party.

Would these parents and "others" objected if it were a Clinton in the White House, and a war in the Balkans? Or maybe that wouldn't be as political. Such a shame these parents object to their kids learning about the organisation that does more humanitarian relief and rescue than all the NGOs and UN groups combined.

One of the cmts above said something about IVAW having stoked this. True? Another said Al Franken had spoken at the school previously. (he's apolitical).

Well, gotta go pick up the kid so she can regale me with what they learned in school today, like how to use a condom, how to define transgender, and how undermining your government is more patriotic than supporting it.

Lesson learned? Stop seeing the public schools as the place that teaches civics and how government works. Also, I've had great luck scheduling talks here and there with friends or family in uniform going in to individual classes. Nobody protests. And let me tell you, those little boys walk with an extra spring in their step when the talk's over.

Hey, maybe that's the problem. When they see a soldier talk, all of a sudden they're proud to be boys! Uh oh, better put a stop to that right away. It might confuse them.

[Sig]

"I don’t claim to have the answers but I can with great confidence say that 98% of all human problems is communication based."

Aaaannnnd you lost me right there.

Sig

[defendusa]

Always says
"The apparent "anti-military" parents are not protesting your honor and respect, in fact if you talk to them one on one, as I have dared to do, you will find them in great reverence.
They are protesting and attempting to protect their children from becoming a statistic."
Bully for you- you dared to talk to a a parent. I'm a parent, too. And I never would have said that my kid could have made the distinction between asssholes or heroes.
I'm sorry but this is another great example hypocrisy of the anti folks. If they wanted to teach them something it would be a lesson to know that standing up for what one believes is right and good, then following through to the very end, no matter the outcome is how it's done.
And, it's lame to quote the statistics and relate it to military service. My kid could die as easily tomorrow as he could in a war zone. Please.
Ane the media do anythig meaningful? Holy Cow, what planet are you on?
Here's the meaningful media as far as I go...Blackfive, Michael Yon.
I don't know why I bang my head against the wall trying to change people's opinions that 9/11 was an inside job. Maybe my mother should have named me Pollyanna, hoping for the good to come out. It ain't gonna happen, is it? FMD

[Maggie45]

Well, I was p****d as all get out while reading this, and then I went over to Powerline to see what they had to say since it's in their neck of the woods and found this:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/33ssls

I think everything actually turned out better because of all the good publicity this generated. And a standing ovation to those high school students who spoke up.

And Kat, bless you for all you do.

[davenp35]

More on the school's principal...
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2008/03/forest-lake-pri.html

[Uncle Jimbo]

I posted video of the event at the top of the post.

Cordially,

Uncle J

[ooogaboooga]

definitely political.

Want to praise the troops about their service is one thing, but to preach to high school kids "stay the course" rhetoric is a whole different ball game. This is so easy it's not even worth debating.

And >yawn< lastly, check who funds this group to see how political it really is.

[Rich Casebolt]

Before I totally comply with LW's request, let me set the record straight:

1> I have taken two children through the public schools, through high school ... one gets his MBA this May, the second gets her nursing degree (her second college degree) next May. Neither has seen the inside of a Bible college.

2> I am an evangelical Christian -- and yes, I can and do quote Scripture. I also put a soundtrack to it, with my Les Paul and/or my bass.

3> I am also an engineer that applies the principles of science every day ... and has to do so accurately every day if he is going to keep his job, as opposed to having the tenure to build a career around anything and everything that crosses his/her mind. I've been successfully making my living this way for 24 years.

4> With the experience I have garnered in (2) and (3) above, I have learned the difference between fact, theory, and article of faith ... and the world would be better off if others in the self-titled "reality-based" community did the same, instead of applying the litmus tests of their conventional wisdom with more BLIND faith in themselves than I do in my God.

People should be careful when they play with stereotypes ... for they can end up demonstrating the truth of Romans 1:22.

[Cynic]

Uncle J?
The video of the event is no longer available? Whasup?!

[Ken]

Video has been pulled. Please advise.

[Cincinnati_Bob]

Damn, if only I'd have found out about this sooner. Like any typical white person, I was accosted by snipers on the way to the high school.
Damn.

Maybe next time.

(The stupid people are in charge.) (This is not a good thing.)

[Al]

Modern Liberals cannot really have what we would call heroes because it's against their philosophy. Everything has to be equal. When these people talk about peace, they get there by tearing down everything that is good, successful and right while elevating everything that is evil, failed and wrong so there is nothing to left to fight over. Their concept of peace is unobtainable and wrong. If we left Iraq tomorrow, they would still complain. They would even complain that we left the Iraqi's to die - it's no problem for them to switch arguments on the fly.

So a hero that does good is against their beliefs. On the other hand, a hero who is against what is good (elevating evil) is okay or is tolerable. That's why they cannot speak out against nasty dictators or Militant Islam; it's not that they are heroes but that they are a force against good. Again, it's about neutralizing good and elevating what isn't good so we don't have anything to argue or fight about. It's really a nothingness.

Watch this video "How Modern Liberals Think" is it is explained a lot better there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c

It's very good and make sure you watch the whole thing. Thanks!

[The Wolf]

Uncle Jimbo's working the video issue.. Stand By!

-Wolf

[1charlie2]

And people wonder why our kids go to a private Catholic school. One that observes Veterans' Day every year.

The first time I was invited (along with a bunch of other vets), I met a guy who'd been with the 506th at Bastogne (I think it was D Co, I wish I'd written it down). We compared notes about Jump school, then and now (Well, 'now' is relative, he considered anything after about 1980 'now', so he considered me a youngster).

After the ceremony, we had coffee and talked for a while longer. What an incredible treat!

Oh, and SWMBO ? She's an Educational Psychologist who consults with public school districts. Which is why our kids wouldn't EVER be attending a public school.

My POS Chevy is 21 years old an falling apart. But if I can keep my kids out of public schools, it's worth it.

[douglas]

Okay, if VFF is "political", that's fine with me. By those standards, there are PLENTY of lefty favorites that go doing programs at school assemblies that could be considered "political". Perhaps we can keep them out of the schools too.

Sheesh. Isn't political discussion the paradigm of free speech? If political speech can be controlled in this way, what stands in the way of anything else being controlled like this? Liberal Fascism :=)

AOT- it's thermite not thermate. Since you can't even get that right, perhaps you should start questioning whether or not the rest of that garbage is anything more than bad conspiracy theory. Please, get your own blog and don't waste our time.

[Cincinnati_Bob]

Al. Preaching to the choir baby! And yes, they would no doubt beat us to death over the genocide in Iraq, if it happened, because we left too early. They would simply say they'd have left but in such a way as to avoid the genocide. That'd be good enough for their supporters too.

PS - Dang, I sure hope some Iraqi takes out the muckbrain de sadr this time. Then everyone can declare open season on the mahdi army an make some real headway in that area. But yes, Iraq is already a success.

[Tantor]

Stop thinking of these petty attempts at suppression as problems and start thinking of them as opportunities. So the school forbids the military heroes from visiting their classroom? Then set up shop off campus within walking distance, perhaps in some patriotic businessman's parking lot, and advertise your presence to the kids as something the school has forbidden them to see. If it's within sight of the school, all the better.

After school, have a big rally around your bus with music and speakers. Hand out booney hats, military pins, and flags so they can walk into school the next day as rebels, bragging up how they defied the school. That will piss off the principal when he sees all that military gear passing through his halls. Then it gets back to the parents that their kids have to sneak away from school to go to a patriotic military event. The parents go WTF? They start quizzing the principal. Turn up the heat on that pinhead.

Use some political judo to use the momentum of the anti-military Left against them. Make support for the military and America the cool, contrarian, counterculture thing for kids. They will eat that up with a spoon.

[Cynic]

It was worth the wait to see the video. I'm sure the students felt the same way about seeing the whole presentation. Good on them for having parents who support the heroes in our country. Good on them for doing the right thing in the right way.

Without knowing whether the principal is really a weasel or not, it seems as if the program was a go until some protesting "parents" (I'm betting it was Rosie O'Donnell/MoveOn types taking advantage of an opportunity) threatened to disrupt the show. K-12 school is an inappropriate venue for demonstrations and protests. For that reason only, the principal may have made a good call. The blame belongs on the whiny pink protesters. And blame them I do. Bah!

[Uncle Jimbo]

Tantor,

Were you on the bus while we were scheming. We are all over it.

Cordially,

Uncle J

[Alwaysoutthere]

Thermate is a more juiced up version of thermite. Thermate also contains sulfur and sometimes barium nitrate, both of which increase its thermal effect.

Not every parent is a soldier ... what you see depends on where you stand.

ooogaboooga , you quoted an song that symbolize worldwide turbulence and confrontational feelings.

Isn't that what I was writing about?

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Sorry just keeping up with the FACTS.
Always Way the Hell Out There

[phil graham]

Comeon guys. The principal of the school was right. VFF is republican front and is purely political in its purpose.

In July 2006, VFF—calling itself the Vets for Freedom Action Fund (VFF-AF)—registered with the IRS as a 527 committee national lobby. It was, in essence, a Republican front group managed by Republican-affiliated public relations, media, legal, and political consultants, including former White House spokesman Taylor Gross, to defeat candidates who advocate an end to the US occupation of Iraq.

[Rich Casebolt]

phil ... you come on.

Until the NEA and AFT remove ALL their political operatives/DNC delegates from the school system, why shouldn't an alumni of a local school ... someone who has been successful in his endeavors ... be allowed to come there with others and speak about their experience?

This isn't just about politics, in the sense of the horse race. This is about life and death ... and the fact that that the side of the political aisle has CONSISTENTLY gotten this wrong is also the one who effectively runs our schools, is no excuse for not allowing those "on the other side" to correct their misinformation and inform our kids of the WHOLE story.

This isn't about turning kids into Republicans. It is about the defense of life and liberty.

It is people like yourself, phil, who are making this political ... as you struggle to Save the Legacy of Woodstock Nation by any means necessary.

Can't stand the competition for young minds? Can't "your" positions stand on their OWN merits, instead of having to be protected by top-down control of the flow of information? We aren't talking theories here ... we're talking facts-on-the-ground.

We can work with you ... or we can work around you, as Tantor and UJ describe.

We are not going away ... for we won't get fooled again ...

[Haole_Wahine]

I know I've been going around in circles a lot lately, but . . .

Minnesota school tries to silence living history lesson
Military City tries to hide military truths
and AUSTIN welcomes war heroes with open arms, bumper stickers, and tattos ??????

Beam me us Scottie

[Kat-Missouri/USA]

Always...that was me quoting that song.

My point was that there is paranoia in the statements of those truthers that can't ever be addressed because it has gone so deep. Believe me, there are things about our government that bother me, but the fact that they are highly inept and incapable of keeping any secret, much less something like 9/11, makes me unparanoid. Frankly, I like our bumbling government. Less chance they can actually impose crazy things and people on us (for the most part).

Otherwise, the comment was also to oogie who is the world's paranoid groupie. The sad thing is, most of these folks haven't got a clue. And, I'm not speaking as some indoctrinated righty with an axe to grind. There are few who know anything about me beyond supporting the troops or some things I write here. I voted democrat my entire life until 2004. There was only one reason that I did that, because I wanted us to complete this mission. I believe it is the right thing to do.

I've moved somewhat rightward in my elder years admittedly, but it did not change how I felt about my country or our men and women in uniform, republican or democrat president, doesn't matter. We sent our men and women to war and I'm going to be there for them, support them in their mission and welcome them home again.

That's called patriotism folks and it doesn't have a damn thing to do with political persuasion or party.

As Bellavia noted, there is no room on a dog tag for political party. name, rank, ID# with an American flag on the right shoulder. Nothing left to say.

[Cincinnati_Bob]

Tantor. Outstanding.

[steveH]

OogaB;

You said "You can homeschool your kids all you want and brainwash them with religion and skip science all together. It's rather common in the bible belt."

Yep, sounds just like the homeschoolers we know.

Actually, we homeschooled all three of our kids. Taught them religion, history, English and American literature and writing, math up through Algebra II and geometry. No science, though.

Well, except for botany, zoology, physics, introductory chemistry, geology, paleontology, marine biology, meteorology, entomology and microbiology. (What can I say? I was science geek in school.)

Both girls graduated with degrees in English Lit (and, of course, have ended up working in everything but that), and the younger one is now working on a PsyD in psychology at the U. of Hawaii. Their brother wanted to go to high school with his friends, and after two years got so bored that took and passed the state CHISPE, blowing off the last two years of high school.

You certainly know a lot about homeschooling. Right.

You're not really very good at this, are you?

[Cole]

These kids missed out on some stories from some great Americans. I have heard rumblings that the school board might apologize and invite them back at another time. Jimbo keep up the good work. Hope to buy you a drink in DC.

If any of you were in OIF/OEF I think there may still be time to sign up for the DC VFF trip

www.vetsforfreedom.org

[WildThing]

Thank you so much for this post, God bless our troops.

[Valerie]

Democrat, here, too, and a supporter of VFF. I think there are a lot of Democrats like me out there. Otherwise, Hillary and Joe Lieberman would have lost their senate seats in the last election, and all those "Blue Dog" democrats that got elected last time around would not have won.

[Arch]

For 9 to 12 years the public schools have been treating their high school students to a barrage of leftist, anti-American propaganda. A tool they use is condemnation of "discrimination" which to them means making reasoned decisions based on logic and rational thought. There can be no difference between Osama Bin Laden and George Washington. Both are, in their eyes, controlled anti-government forces based on violence. Ignore the fact that Osama wantonly slaughtered civilians and hid in the mountains while Washington lead an Army on the field of battle in compliance with the laws of war.

When schools teach about World War II, they discuss internment of the Japanese and equate it to German concentration camps and the Bataan Death March. Our educators do not explain the total mobilization of this country, training and equipping an armed force of 8.3 million men (and I mean MEN). Everything but war production stopped so we could help our allies win. They teach that the Japanese attacked us in Pearl Harbor to begin the war and we dropped two atomic bombs on their country to end it. No one knows the details of what happened on Omaha Beach or Iwo Jima and why it was necessary.

Thomas Sowell, one of my favorite American philosophers, was recently asked what was to most dangerous threat to the US today. I expected to hear, Al Qaeda or Russia or Communist China. His answer was absolutely correct, "The Nation Education Administration."

[Arch]

Sorry. I meant to say, "National Education Association"

Arch

[JihadGene]

***ATRENTTION***

GREAT READER KIM Jong IL has gloriously fired 1st salvo at mudder-less, bottom-feeding, left-leaning, bait-sucking, Musskie's of Loser-Viking's TWIN SHITTIES! Operlation JULIA CHILD is huge Suck-cess!!!!

Our Battle Cry (now hear this you Larry Craig bathroom stall toe-tapper's) is

YOUR GOOSE IS COOKED!!!

(PER MY ODORS YOU'RE ALL FLOATER'S!!!)

God Blest all of mine Wunnerful tloops and long live (she dead now) Comrade JULIA CHILD!

That's all folks!
Great Reader, KIM Jong IL
DPRK 90210

[Alwaysoutthere]

Sorry Kat,

Haole, I'm living proof Austin is good to it's vets. I can not go very far with out being stopped, thanked, welcomed home. People really want to TALK to me. They are concerned, they love MILITARY here.

Alwaysoutthere

[Alwaysoutthere]

I think the battle information and the "rallying" of the whole country does belong in the history books and in the classroom.

So let's get off our ARSES and go put it in there! Blaming others who can't "see" the wisdom is a COPE OUT of the highest order.

AWOT

[Tantor]

Uncle J: "Tantor, Were you on the bus while we were scheming. We are all over it."

In spirit, yes, Jimbo. We obviously are communicating telepathically.

We were caught flat-footed by the protests of the Vietnam War. This time around we are the counterculture. We have the advantages of being on the right side, being smarter, and being more organized than the hippies of old. Since the Left has the conventional army of the liberal media, we have to fight a guerrilla war in new media to bring them down. And we're winning.

[ElMondo]

My apologies to Blackfive readers for the derail - my post is most certainly not on the issue of the video or heros on the left. But an earlier comment posted here contained some stupidities which need to be stomped out.

"A very young man I talked to told me that he was aware of military grade thermate being found in WTC dust and metal samples and do not trust the "government" anymore. Since he used my own term, THERMATE and not “invisible planes” or “drones” or “space weapons”, he got my attention."

You are overcredulous and foolish. I may not post much and only lurk here, but I do NOT want to see this forum overrun with conspiracy fantasy lies. Thermite/thermate was NOT used at the WTC. Not only was military grade thermite/thermate never, ever found, no evidence that any thermite/thermate use has ever has come up, and zero - repeat ZERO scientists have found thermite or thermate. ZERO. Not a SINGLE ONE. Only one - ONLY ONE has found anything that even comes remotely close to opening the door to the possibility of any sort of thermite compound; his name Steven Jones's, and the iron particles he makes a big deal about have many possible origins besides thermite that are far more probable. Like the components of concrete, or the end results of welding.

"Thermate is a more juiced up version of thermite. Thermate also contains sulfur and sometimes barium nitrate, both of which increase its thermal effect."

Barium nitrate was not found as a residue in any of the WTC debris that was tested. Steven Jones's work doesn't mention any of this either. And the sulfur content cannot be tied to thermate use. Why? Explain where the sulfur went that was an exhaust product of all the diesel engines that ran through New York city. Explain as well where all the drywall's sulfur went in the fires and collapse. As well as the sulfur compounds found in computer monitors. As well as the sulfur in acid rain. Right there, there are 4 more likely sources for sulfur than thermate, the first two of which the WTC's were exposed to for decades, the second two of which were in great abundance in the buildings.

Your source is wrong. You are wrong. There was no thermite/thermate/incindiery/demolitions use at the WTC. At ALL. Zero proof.

If anyone else is reading this, don't take my word for this. Look here:

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm
http://911myths.com/html/traces_of_thermate_at_the_wtc.html
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=107552

Also:

AE911Truth is a group founded on fantasy.

http://ae911truth.info

Summary: There was no government plot to bring down the World Trade Centers. Period. 9/11/01 was NOT an inside job. You are a fool if you believe it was. Do not fall for lies. Do not pass along lies.

End of derail. Again, my apologies to other Blackfive participants for this post, but it's better that the truth be told than paranoid fantasies about the US government and 9/11 go unchallenged.

[Saint Michael]

“ooogaboooga says:
But let's be honest here, Vets for Freedom is a politically motivated group."

As one of the Local Vets who rode the bus yesterday, I would like to respond to your comments. Labeling us as "politically motivated” is the easy way to try and discredit us rather than engage in a rational discussion with one of us or even listen to what we have to say for that matter.

If you did talk with one of us you might find out that there are many members of VFF who support Pres. Bush and many who DO NOT. Our focus has nothing to do with the administration or politics. It has to do with the war and our ability to accomplish our mission.

Our intent is to present what we saw when we were over there and the situation on the ground today. By hearing both of those perspectives, people can make up there own mind regarding whether or not we are making progress. We can show actual tangible progress on both a military and political aspect in Iraq. Those two factors are not mutually exclusive; they are closely tied together along with an economic piece that determines progress and ultimately victory.

From the soldier’s perspective, it doesn't matter how we got there. That debate has long lost it’s relevance in how to get out of Iraq. From a Historical viewpoint, have the discussion all day long but in regards to the current mission in Iraq, it has no bearing. WE ARE ALREADY COMMITTED and the current situation is what is relevant. The relevance of 05-06 as compared to the progress of 07-08 is what we are talking about. Progress has been made militarily, economically and politically. That’s coming from the soldiers who have been there, not the politicians in Washington DC.

If you want the political viewpoint, read the quotes and listen to the sound bites of your favorite Congressman. If you want the truth, listen to the Vets who have lived it!

The bottom line, as soldiers, we are carrying this burden. We know how to win this war and we have proved that over the last year. Let us do our job.

http://stmichael.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx

[Alwaysoutthere]

ElMondo, I don't think the "government" did it either, and you can even talk me out of what my eyes see, 6.5 - 7 second collapse speed on WTC 7 (not). You can not talk me out of the projectile of the internal load bearing beams far beyond what the load, in supposed rapid collapse, could possible create. I've seen a lot of explosions (OD) and I see a projection, not gravity collapse. I ran the physics equations too.

I see murder, with lack of murder "investigation". Why not one investigator? Why all bureaucratic idiots doing the "analysis". Department heads are political, I want to see real technical investigators have a hack at it. The political machine spit out political analysis, not rigorous scientific analysis, I know I read it all, every official report, after Mr. 16 year old spoke to me in his confidence. And I found flaws of the highest order. Don't feed me popular mechanic BS either, they are paid dupes. There are serious flaw with the "official" story and this is only the beginning of the tidal wave you will be attempting to hold back should you persist in your futile efforts. Why is it so hard to conceive that a PROPER scientific investigation would not be appropriate in the death of 3,000 of our country man? Why did they spend 20 million a blue dress and blow job and 4 million on 3,000 murder victims? Why do you fight this no brain issue, does it provoke fear into you? Let the people have what they want. These are dangerous times indeed and you know not of what you speak.

As far as the schools, it is real simple. The parents are trying to keep their kids from becoming a statistic. If you can't get your head around this, then you can't talk to them or influence them. To lash out at them, calling them names we all know damn well have not worked in this country for twenty years, is immature and ignorant. Left Right that is so YESTERDAY. It is either for the Constitution and Bill of Rights or for the political machine, the "state" - that simple. America has GONE WAY PAST THE left-right GAME. She don't watch much tv no more either, like apparently some dupes still do. I recommend you get a clue. Hegelian conflicts steer every political arena on the planet, from the United Nations to the major American political parties, all the way down to local school boards and community councils. Dialogues and consensus-building are primary tools of the dialectic, and terror and intimidation are also acceptable formats for obtaining the goal. If your still in the "left - right" trap, your not going to be of much use in the future, to anyone.

AWOT

[Deltabravo]

At first I didn't think all of the discussion on thermate/thermite belonged here either. But in view of what happened to the VFF guys, (whom the left does not want to listen to,) I have changed my mind. At other places I have seen comments about the latest tv-spawned theories that evilBushCheneyHitlerChimp (whatever they call him) was behind the implosion of WTC-7. The same folks probably who say a missile really hit the Pentagon on 9-11. This debate is about people who have been there and witnessed and people who are trying to see evil where it doesn't exist in order to justify their own traitorous fantasies. I personally know people who were inside the Pentagon who were sprayed with debris and jet fuel and lived to tell what really happened. Same with the WTCs. Read it here:
Debunking idiotic conspiracy theories

In the same way, our vets who have been boots on the ground deserve to tell the truth before the MSM and their fellow travelers replace truth with the latest conspiracy lie. It has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with truth or falsehood, sense and nonsense.

[Alwaysoutthere]

http://www.911truth.org/links.php

JUST THE FACTS.

I know people at the Pentagon too. People who cleaned up some bodies. I also have personally spoken to 4 family members of Navy personnel killed.
This should be a NO BRAINIER in a Constitutional Republic.

A real SCIENTIFIC - CRIMINAL investigation is all that is required to clear the air ... for good. If it comes back CLEAN -alls well that ends well, and hundreds if not thousands of family members feel better (and millions of Americans too) If it comes back not so great, well, we go from there.

[Cincinnati_Bob]

AWOT, There are many ways this could have happened in alternate reality.

But let's jump to the punch line. Let's say it happened the way you think and let's assume one of the high level people who know 'the truth' come forward like in the "3 days of the Condor".

What do you want to See happen ?

What do you think Can happen ?

[Cincinnati_Bob]

AWOT. You're not going to get an investigation. You already had it. The 911 commission. It's over. Kaput.

Just like the Warren Commission, or the one, if there was one, that looked into Pearl Harbor.

That's all there is. There Ain't No More.

[ElMondo]

You don't believe the government "did it either", yet you push sites where that's the main charge? That the government didn't merely "let 9/11 happen" , but actually carried it out? If you don't believe it, why are you pushing those theories?

And: The "real" scientific investigation is still ongoing. The NIST has released it's report on the main World Trade Center towers collapse, and is currently assembling the report on WTC 7. So tell me, why do you want a new investigation when the old one isn't completed yet?

-----

Everyone: Note how Alwaysoutthere denigrated the Popular Mechanics works, but didn't even try to build a counterargument to it. Why? Because they're accurate, correct, and properly show the errors the so-called truth movement makes, so the only way to discredit the truth they purport is through insult. Alwaysoutthere cannot build a counterargument based on facts. Look at the charge: Paid hacks. Doesn't speak to any truth or falsity, because Always can't rebut on those grounds. But I'll let the rest of the readership decide. For starters, here's the list of "paid hacks":

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=9

Here's a random excerpt from that list:

Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D.,
ATP, CFI, A&P/IA president, Hynes Aviation Services; expert, aviation crashes

Matthew McCormick manager, survival factors division, National Transportation Safety Board (Ret.)

Fred E.C. Culick, Ph.D., S.B., S.M. professor of aeronautics, California Institute of Technology

Clint Oster professor of public and environmental affairs, Indiana University; aviation safety expert

David Biggs, P.E. structural engineer, Ryan-Biggs Associates; member, ASCE team for FEMA report

James Quintiere, Ph.D. professor of engineering, University of Maryland member, NIST advisory committee

Read the arguments. See if the "hacks" made any real errors or not.

And: Try an argument a bit better than "paid hacks". Because, to be frank, whatever they were paid was worth it. They showed the misrepresentations the conspiracy peddlers push.

----

www.911truth.org? To be honest, they're a bunch of unpaid hacks. Let's look at their "steering committee":

"Mike Berger, Media Coordinator Mike earned a degree in Sociology with a focus on human motivation..."

"Paul Deslauriers, Grassroots Coordinator Paul has over twenty-three years experience as an organizational development consultant, management coach, and workshop facilitator..."

"Jason King Jason King is an activist, parent and graphic designer."

". David Kubiak, International Campaign Advisor David worked for most of the last 30 years in Kyoto, Japan where he taught mass media and memetics at Ritsumeikan University, ran a blues bar, served on the board of Kyoto's Japan Civil Liberties Union..."

"Fred Burks served for many years as a language interpreter for presidents and other dignitaries..."

"Barrie Zwicker Author, activist and TV and radio producer..."

Yes, a bunch of people qualified to speak about airplane crashes, fire and safety engineering, and structural engineering. Or the physics of high-rise collapses. They are somehow more credible than the Popular Mechanics experts, or the NIST World Trade Center investigation team, or the FEMA Pentagon researchers. Right.

Pardon the sarcasm, but frankly, www.911truth.org is a fantasy site. Here is a short list of sites based in reality:

http://911myths.com/
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/home

Alwaysoutthere has no argument. No piece of evidence exists that supports the fantasy that thermate or explosives were used. Only erroneous "calculations" would show otherwise.

[Cincinnati_Bob]

ELMondo.

No doubt. The problem is trying to have a rational convo with someone incapable of rational thought. I tried that for years, and don't waste the time anymore.

The only item one need consider is the same thing as with the 'never landed on the moon' freaks. There would be Too Many people involved that couldn't all be killed or otherwise silenced for the moon fake or this deal to stay under wraps.

Someone would be collecting incredible amounts of cash for telling THAT story. Or wouldn't be able to live with themself for killing all those people. Or You Name It. The idea that some large number of people would be involved and all be able to stay silent for years like this is beyond rationality in terms that can't even be put in writing.

[ElMondo]

Deltabravo, you are correct. Everyone deserves the truth, and the fantasy sites Alwaysoutthere listed do not deliver any truth. They deliver fantasies based on misrepresentations, mistakes, or out-and-out lies. Our servicemen and women do not deserve the distortion of 9/11 they make that shifts blame away from the radical militant Islamicists responsible for the atrocity. And they certainly don't deserve the lie they push saying the battles they currently fight were engineered by some Bush/Cheney/New World Order conspiracy.

Anyway, I've said enough. No more off topic spam; this is the last derail by me. Everyone: Just view Always's claims against the sites I list, as well as the JREF Conspiracy Theory forum (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64), the Popular Mechanics works that Alwayssoutthere tries to denigrate, and Deltabravo's linking of Andrew Burfield's excellent debunking site. And again, my apologies for being off topic. As I said, some idiocies must be responded to.

[ElMondo]

Cincinnati_Bob,

I don't really have "conversations" with these people. I do address them, but my real target, as it is in other forums, are the bystanders. I'm probably not going to convince a conspiracy peddler that the truth is counter to their claims, but I can use them as object lessons to show others who don't have the benefit of a contrasting voice the distortions the fantasy addicts peddle. And maybe a fantasy peddler somewhere will actually pick up on what I say and see the truth. It's happened before: http://extruther.blogspot.com/

And: You're 100% correct about your other assertion too. I agree fully.

[Deltabravo]

AWOT, my sources also talked to family members of the Navy personnel who died in the Pentagon. My sources told those people how those Navy men and women spent their last moments of their lives and what they were doing at their duty stations when the plane hit. My sources went to the funerals and then had to pick up their lives and their jobs and carry on without their shipmates in what had been a very close and cohesive office environment with friends and coworkers they worked with for years.

My sources also talked to the men who cleared out the work spaces of the debris and personal effects of the dead and the survivors.

Nothing provokes hostility in them like the peddlers of lies who are trying to let the guilty parties off the hook for their hideous crime.

I don't know what's scarier... the level of hatred for this President that revisionist charlatans would invent such impossible theories or that they actually have an audience.

The VFF tour can't be long enough and hit enough cities to ensure that the same people won't rewrite their history and cover over their accomplishments and suffering and valor in the same mealy-mouthed chicken-shit manner.

[defendusa]

AOT...again, you use that stupid line that 'parents don't want their kids to be a statistic.' Stop it. That is completely assanine and ignorant. Peddle all that sheisse you want, but that is a stretch. Same as DeltaBravo and probably several other readers and lurkers here, I know people who survived The Pentagon hit. Get the hell over all the things you think you know. You aren't going to convince any one here that you have anymore brain cells than all those anti folks.

[Rich Casebolt]

I've said it before ... conspiracy theorists like the Truthers remind me of the preachers who were warning me about the backwards-masked messages in my music ... when all it took to differentiate the benign from the malignant was to listen to it in the normal direction.

Just a few miles north of where I am typing this, there is a hanger with the remains of TWA Flight 800 inside, chicken-wired together. They recovered nearly all of that plane ... and while they have a pretty good idea of what caused it to explode, there is still a measure of doubt about it.

I bring this up, to remind the skeptical that life isn't like CSI Wherever ... sometimes, you won't be able to settle everything beyond a reasonable doubt.

In fact, I think that a few Truthers are counting on that ... for it allows them to continue stirring the pot to keep their own political agendas alive.

Anyone who thinks any investigation that would meet Truther approval would NOT be rife with political operatives masquerading as scientific investigators is fooling themselves.

BTW, a "criminal" investigation could be considered inappropriate here ... as this was an ACT OF WAR.

Deltabravo, it is not only hatred for this President that is driving this ... it is fear that any success on his part will take away the critics' most important possession.

Not their lives ...
Not their civil liberties ...
Not their Congressional seats ...
Not even their grass ...

No, the critics greatest fear is that any success on his part will erode the CREDIBILITY of their worldview, in the eyes of the American people.

That is what all their idiocy ... from the 911 Truthers, to those in Minnesota who stopped an American Man from giving something valuable back to the very school that educated him -- a direct account of his experiences as a defender of this nation ... is about.

It is about Saving the Legacy of Woodstock Nation.

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

Not if we have anything to say about it ... and we do.

We won't get fooled again ...

[Alwaysoutthere]

You can not argue with science. All this bologna is OPINION. I know about compartmentalization as a reality, not good fiction read. If it was another governments "black ops" they are long gone, probably dead. The point is this the 911 Commission Report is a political fantasy - senerio, put forth by highly political people. Look at them one by one, judge character and motive. If you have never read real science reports you would "assume" things are in order. You fall for the analysis due to your genuine lack of situational awareness. The whole point is you should not stand in the way of Americans trying to check their government. Not everyone trusts the big man quite like you do. It is a foolish road to oppose FACTS. And if you take the time to really read all the reports you too, an sure, will come away wondering where a few chapters of the "book" are. The American people have a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to check their government, now get the hell out of the way, your fears are ridiculous.

[Alwaysoutthere]

“To bring the people under the bidding of its leaders is easy. All you have to do is tell them they’re being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for exposing the country to danger; it works the same in any country!” – Hermann Goering at the Nuremburg trials

SEMPER FIDELIS - to the CONSTITUTION of the United States and the protection of this Nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic!

“We the people are the rightful masters of both the courts and the congress; not to overthrow the constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the constitution!” – Abraham Lincoln

This decision was not about politics. There's a crap-load of politics in schools - left-wing politics. I'll bet anyone money that all the following is true about "FLake" High School:

The Science curriculum includes the obligatory showing of Al Gore's socialist manifesto "An Inconvenient Truth" and sends all the kiddies home with those cute curly fluorescent light bulbs.That's (left-wing) politics.

The English curriculum has banned any book containing any words the least bit offensive, intolerant, or un-P.C., like Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. But there's plenty of books with drugs and sex (straight, gay, and bi). That's (left-wing) politics.

Dodge ball has been deleted from the Gym curriculum, so no one's feelings get hurt. That's (left-wing) politics.

The History and Social Studies curricula are poisoned with the P.C. notions of "dump some of those dead white males and include more Satan-worshiping trans