I am beginning to wonder....

Posted By Deebow

How long it is going to be before we award an MoH to a living recipient?

Now, before everyone gets all crazy about what I am talking about here, let me explain.

I have seen the complaint by many in the blogosphere and elsewhere that based on the number of years at war with the Islamofascists and the number of MoH's awarded (in comparison to the other conflicts we have fought), that we are way behind in recognizing our heroes for their selfless acts of heroism that give of themselves for their country, and for the men and women who are standing next to them on that midnight raid or walking patrol somewhere outside the wire.

And for years, the military has unfortunately suffered from a belief that medal quotas are the way to ensure that medals and awards are fairly awarded, and not cheapened by giving everyone some shiny metal and colored ribbon.  I fail to see how a quota is fair or equitable, that may be a whole other topic though.  I was on a deployment once that the criteria was actually spelled out the break down via rank about who would be awarded what; E1 - E4 got an Achievement medal, E5 - E6 got a Commendation Medal, E7 and Above got a Meritorious Service Medal. 

My problem with that was (and still is), what if an E-3 did something to deserve a Meritorious Service Medal?  Would he get it?  Some sacrifices or actions above and beyond the call are more worthy than any others; and because of some artificial limit on how many medals or awards can be awarded and who they can be awarded to, someone who deserves an award may not be recognized.

Many of us in the military have been the victim of this, and yes, it sucks.  But I don't do it for the ribbons or the medals, and many of the soldiers I have served with feel the same.  Additionally, the sacrifices of Jason L. Dunham, Paul R. Smith, Mike Murphy, and now, Mike Monsoor are not to be in any way minimized or pushed aside based upon the comparison of their actions to the actions of others in combat.  The heroic individual actions that this medal are awarded for cannot be quantified or added up to get a definite answer. 

And that is exactly my point.  You just know what it takes to get the MoH when you see it.

For instance, would something like this merit an MoH? 

I found this on the CJTF-82 Website under the "Heroes" area.  Recently, Army Medic Sgt Robert Fortner of 2/B/1-91 CAV, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team performed the following in Afghanistan on 27 July 2007 near Saret Koleh Village in Nuristan Province.

An American patrol near the village of Saret Koleh, Nuristan, came under fire from more than 100 insurgents dug into high ground on either side of the road. Turning his attention to two troopers wounded in the initial volley, Sergeant Fortner moved forward up the mountainside to treat the wounded where they fell.  After removing a machinegun bullet from his own arm, Sergeant Fortner continued to treat and evacuate casualties, refusing medical aid and insisting on staying with his platoon. Sergeant Fortner continued to treat casualties in the engagement area, at times crawling on his belly to avoid the withering enemy fire, and refusing evacuation until all the other casualties were extracted.

Sergeant Fortner’s extraordinary heroism and medical aid rendered under enemy fire, saved the lives of more than 10 of his comrades and represents the finest traditions of heroism in combat.

I don't know if his chain of command has nominated him for an MoH, but they should.  If he was my soldier, I would.  I think personally that this Sergeant deserves some serious consideration for the award.

And just for a point of reference on medics who have received the MoH, here are some excerpts of citations from the AMEDD website for the MoH awarded to medics throughout the history of the Medal...

This one from Vietnam...

Disregarding the intense enemy fire and ground assault, Private Kays began moving toward the perimeter to assist his fallen comrades. In doing so he became the target of concentrated enemy fire and explosive charges, one of which severed the lower portion of his left leg. After applying a tourniquet to his leg, Private Kays moved to the fire-swept perimeter, administered medical aid to one of the wounded, and helped move him to an area of relative safety. Despite his severe wound and excruciating pain, Private Kays returned to the perimeter in search of other wounded men. He treated another wounded comrade, and, using his own body as a shield against enemy bullets and fragments, moved him to safety. Although weakened from a great loss of blood, Private Kays resumed his heroic lifesaving efforts by moving beyond the company's perimeter into enemy-held territory to treat a wounded American lying there. Only after his fellow wounded soldiers had been treated and evacuated did Private Kays allow his own wounds to be treated.

or this one from WWII...

PFC Hawks, nevertheless, crawled 50 yards through a veritable hail of machine-gun bullets and flying mortar fragments to a small ditch, administered first aid to his fellow aidman who had sought cover therein, and continued toward the two wounded men 50 yards distant. An enemy machine-gun bullet penetrated his helmet, knocking it from his head, momentarily stunning him. Thirteen bullets passed through his helmet as it lay on the ground within 6 inches of his body. PFC Hawks, crawled to the casualties, administered first aid to the more seriously wounded man and dragged him to a covered position 25 yards distant. Despite continuous automatic fire from positions only 30 yards away and shells which exploded within 25 yards, PFC Hawks returned to the second man and administered first aid to him. As he raised himself to obtain bandages from his medical kit, his right hip was shattered by a burst of machine-gun fire and a second burst splintered his left forearm. Displaying dogged determination and extreme self control, PFC Hawks, despite severe pain and his dangling left arm, completed the task of bandaging the remaining casualty and with superhuman effort dragged him to the same depression to which he had brought the first man. Finding insufficient cover for 3 men at this point, PFC Hawks crawled 75 yards in an effort to regain his company, reaching the ditch in which his fellow aidman was lying.

Both of these men turned out to be living recipients of the Medal.  I think that everyone that visits here (with the exception of some of the nuttahs) understand that the level of heroism that a soldier has to aspire to is something that you can't just check the blocks on, and see that it meets the level.  This is something that you just know when you see it.

And I don't know if this is the case or not, but if the military chiefs are afraid of the Congress, the politics of the Dems, the Old Media, and the Libtard Left in regards to the awarding of the MoH to a living recipient; then the awarding of this medal to a service member who could tell their story of heroism before the cameras and microphones to the world is being politicized, and that makes said politicization wrong.

I hope that is not the case, and my sincere hope is that some of our soldiers one day are standing in formation on some post somewhere prepared for inspection by their command with their Platoon Sergeant, Sergeant First Class Fortner, standing at the front.

And they get the pleasure of of getting to see a general stand at attention and salute him.

Here is hoping that something like this happens soon....

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Comments

[rainnuo]

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[douglas]

I'm totally with you on this Deebow. Merit is what medals of valor should be based on. If they MUST give out the 'everyone gets one', 'thanks for playing' awards too, that's fine, but have specific awards which are BY DEFINITION not about valorous conduct, but are about service only. That would seem fair to me. Awards that are valor based must not be issued by quota nor should they be seen as being necessary to hold to a certain ratio based on historical precedent. Valor doesn't come in metered, regular quantities. In fact, I'd argue that it's often concentrated in certain areas and around certain groups just due to factors like the exposure to combat actions a unit sees, the command and training of any particular unit, and the individuals in it. You'd also expect that you might see increased incidence of such events in an all volunteer force.

Heroes deserve to be honored, not shuffled around by bean counters.

[Cole]

I hate medals. The guys to the left and right of you know what kind of warrior you are, and that is the only thing that matters.

[mindy1]

I would LOVE to see a living MOH recipient-it would be so inspiring. Do not cower because of congress, they should listen to we the people, including soldiers, Marines, etc...

[Cannoneer No4]

The primary purpose for recognizing heroism in combat is not to reward or encourage troops, it is to encourage the folks back home to be proud, humble, and willing to do more to support the team. People who sit in the Home bleachers but root for the Visitors don't want the team supported.

There can be no heroes in an illegal war. Thus sayeth the MSM. And SECDEF says the press is not the enemy, so that's that.

9 out of 10 Americans don't know the significance of the MOH, so why should PA bother?

[jtb-in-texas]

The MOH award criteria is a pendulum thing... There have been some awarded for little more than being a VIP in the right unit during the right battle (e.g., during the US Civil War). There have been some awarded late because the recipient was guilty of being black, Hebrew, or whatever at a time when that wasn't popular.

I had a friend in college who seemed like a regular guy but who had 2 Silver Stars (one from Vietnam, one from Honduras) whose stories (he let me read the citation) sounded much like the stories of the MOH recipients, except all he gave up were his knees and a few feet of intestine as he saved members of his unit and some civilians...

I think part of the problem is the bureaucracy in DC. Those "GS-97s" who "really run things" are the reason the suspicious behaviour of arabs on 9/11 wasn't stopped. And some of them obviously believe we've given out too many medals to Combat MOSs and not enough to the folks who bravely slog their way through Beltway traffic every day...

YMMV. I could be wrong. It might all be Karl Rove's fault... ;-)

[RockThrowingPeasant]

Here's a direct link to the story:

http://cjtf-a.com/index.php/Heroes-of-CJTF-82/Army-Sgt-Robert-Fortner.html

Regarding the medals thing, I've been on those deployments, as well (rank determines award). I've always thought THAT devalues an award.

[Howard]

Back when I was in the "word" was that you could only get one of the "good ones" was if you saved the life of a colonel and up or if a general actually was there when some act of heroism took place. It was also obvious that officers were braver than enlisted men. And career enlisted men braver than non career. It's probably been that way ever since Achilles wasted Hector.

[Old Tanker]

Awards should be given on merit. I got 2 ARCOM's from Desert Sheild/Storm. The first was given to pretty much everybody "just because" Standard wording, "...exceptionally meritorious service....brings credit upon himself and his unit..." yada yada.

The second was given after I had words with my platoon Sergeant because he had decided to leave me behind to load our equipment back onto the boats. I was told I would be there for another 3 months while my unit went home. This didn't sit well as I was already past my ETS date (stop loss) and there were guys in my unit, same rank, that had re-uped and had years left on their enlistment. I had a few words with the platoon Sergeant and he felt guilty, so I got another ARCOM for loading boats....of course, it reads almost word for word the same as the first ARCOM. Has anyone figured out how much those awards mean to me yet??

My Driver's T-Badge meant a lot more because I actually earned that one....

[Miss Ladybug]

Well, it is my understanding that David Bellavia has been nominated for a Medal of Honor. He'd be the first living recipient in The Long War...

[Rooster]

The Medal of Honor has been awarded only five times, all of them posthumously, since the US withdrew from combat operations in Vietnam in 1973.

There are still some, but not many, living recipients of the MoH. Of the 3445 MoH s that have been awarded since the Civil War, there are only 107 living recipients today. Chances are that you will go your entire life without ever having met one of these most distinguished heroes.

I’ve only met one, and it’s one of the most tremendous honors I’ve ever had. To stand before a MoH recipient is stand before a truly great person.

And if we fail to award the MoH to deserving living candidates, such as Sgt. Fortner or Spc. Monica Lin Brown, then there will come a day when we won’t have a single living recipient to honor, to learn from, and to look up to.

And that would be tragedy.

[JusCruzn]

I think I have to agree with a prior post by Cole on this one. I don't hate medals but I do believe that the people with you know what you are made of when things get really intense. When your days in the service are over and you may sit down with your family the awards and medals are nice to show them. Maybe Dick Winters said it best in his quote about his grandson asking if he was a hero in the war. He said no grandpa was no hero but he served in a company of heroes! Personally I admire Dick Winters alot but my father in law's WWII experiences make him my personal hero.

[Old Tanker]

Cole, JusCruzn,

You are right in one sense, the opinion of guys to the left and right of you is what matters most, but no one wears a medal in BDU's (or whatever they're called now ACU's?)

If I had witnessed one of my buddies doing the things these people have done, I'd be pushing hard to make sure everybody knew what I know about them.

[thebronze]

Deebow,

Here's the comment I made back on the 22nd in the Mike Monsoor post.

"If what Brian Chontosh (even though he's an "O") and SSG Bellavia did wasn't worthy of an MoH, I don't know what is.

Truly "Audie Murphy" style stuff.

The DoD should get rid of the "requirement" that people die before being awarded the MoH. Don't we deserve to have some "live" heroes?"

You posted on that one too. This kind of shit pisses me off.
Rooster was correct.

[TransPhat]

I'm still serving as a Reservist on Active Duty and I think it's important to distinguish between the two very different types of medals we're talking about here.

'Service' medals may be rationed, but they are considered 'time served' medals for the most part. NO ONE has ever said (to my knowledge) that there will be a rationing of action-based medals. I'm talking about Bronze/Silver Stars and AF/Navy Crosses. I've been the investigating officer on more than one and the simple fact is that they take time.

If you research the timeline on most MOH, they are awarded very after the fact. The exception being when the PTB needed an immediate hero to parade.

When the book is written on this war we will have our share of MOH recipients, probably more, because the US forces as they stand right now are the most professional, competent, and lethal of any in our illustrious military history.

[NH Trooper]

I have a question. When I was in (92-97 peacetime pogue) I believe the CIB was only awarded to Combat Arms guys involved in direct combat. Others MOS's like mine(MP) were not authorized even though they(we) might have been near enough to action to qualify. I understand that they now have a Combat Actiion Badge that is inclusive of all MOS's due to the nature of the fight now. My question is this: SI that the case? Do Grunts, Tankers and Cannon cockers get a CAB or still the CIB? Seems like the CIB would still be appropriate for Combat Arms guys seein as they like the tradition/symbolism of that award. Although, given what they did with the Ranger Regiments Black Beret it wouldn't surprise if everyone in direct combat gets the new badge.

[Outlaw 13]

Non Infantry MOS receive the CAB if they have been involved in direct combat with the enemy.

Yes, it does take a long time to award the MOH, today. Someone mentioned Audie Murphy, he received his months, not years after the action he was recognized for. It issue today is the amount of bureaucracy something like that has to work its way through. It is frankly ridiculous.

Awards have been and always will be subjective. As long as humans are involved, things like friendship, likes, dislikes and prejudices will influence whose award will be approved and whose will be downgraded or just outright disapproved. This isn't fair but that's the way things are. I can tell you of a situation where one guy received a Distinguished Flying Cross for a certain action and another person who did something virtually identical received an Air Medal with "V" device. Why? Who the hell knows. Maybe the CG was using his Magic 8-Ball that day, bottom line it happened and it's not fair but that's the way it is.

Most importantly those who were there know who did what to whom and when they did it. But what is also important to the Army and the population of this nation as a whole is for commanders to hold up and reward those heroes in their formations who have gone beyond the call of duty. It is essential for soldiers and the nation as a whole to see what kind of heroes they serve with and are serving for them. If commanders fail to do this it is a dis-service to not just the soldier but to the Army and the nation as a whole...that is sad, and it happens far too often IMHO.

[thebronze]

Spot-on DM!

[Don Miguel]

I don't know much about how and why medals are awarded, but I do know it is screwed up. My son (who BTW doesn't seem to care about medals) has a boatload of Army Commendation and Achievement medals, a CIB and a CAB (Army); the deal is though that he's in the Air Force. He has no combat awards from the USAF (not even the new and rightly earned USAF CAB yet) because they feel he's just doing his job. Funny thing is, he knows a few USAF officers who never left a TOC but got bronze stars.

[AFSister]

I know of someone who was on a deployment that handed out awards according to rank, so yes, that has happened.

I don't understand why some are put in for MoH's (or Silver or Bronze Stars) and some aren't, for similar actions. It's like a game or something. I wish the determining factors were more clearly laid out. The military is so regimented it's almost like no one wants to take the time to step out of the box and say "no, this isn't just Silver Star quality... it's MoH worthy as well'. I just don't get it.

[Ymarsakar]

There's nothing particularly stopping the John Kerrys of the world from maximing out the quota for classes of medals, thus locking out anyone with less political clout or influence in the rest of the chain of command.

Quotas by themselves don't stop abuses of the system, since there is no verifiable way to determine that the people being locked out are trying to cheat. If the system knew that, they wouldn't need a quota to prevent cheaters, because they would already have known whether people deserved these medals or not.

[Old Tanker]

NH Trooper

I was a tanker (could you have guessed) and we got nothing like a CIB in desert shield/storm. But as TransPhat pointed out, it is a service medal. Us tankers were a little jealous but we understood it to be an infantry thing. As we used to say, it their payment for being track grease. The ARCOM is supposed to be a merit award. In my unit they were given so loosely that they lost any meaning.

[Some Soldier's Mom]

There have been discussions about the lack of the MoH and the awarding (and not awarding) of other medals, e.g., the S and B Stars... if memory serves there was some DoD inter-service commission (sigh) formed a few years back to look at the way medals were awarded between the services, but I can't recall that I ever saw a report or recommendations of that commission..

The hoopla began as I recall after a milblogger pointed out the imbalance in the awarding of the Bronze Star -- Officer: Enlisted numbers "with 'V'" compared to w/o... seemed all the O type Fobbits were nominating each other for the BrStar for pushing paper w/o paper cuts while those performing noteworthy and heroic feats in actual combat were being ignored.

I've noted on more than one occasion that during and after OIF3, the members of 3BDE 3ID joked (with little humor) that the only way to get a Bronze Star in 3ID was to be an officer or dead. Far as I can see, that hasn't changed much.

[LGD]

Mindy1 just touches on why I don't expect to see a living MOH winner from this war-- at least not until after GW Bush leaves office.

The hell that the leftists will put the man through will sicken us. Look what they do to recruiting centers, recruiters and conservative speakers on campus. That will be nothing compared to what happens to a living MOH winner from this war. He'll need bodyguards.