Does 12 Captains trump 7 82nd ABN NCOs?

Posted By Uncle Jimbo

Today marks five years since the authorization of military force in Iraq, setting Operation Iraqi Freedom in motion. Five years on, the Iraq war is as undermanned and under-resourced as it was from the start. And, five years on, Iraq is in shambles.

As Army captains who served in Baghdad and beyond, we've seen the corruption and the sectarian division. We understand what it's like to be stretched too thin. And we know when it's time to get out.

What does Iraq look like on the ground? It's certainly far from being a modern, self-sustaining country. Many roads, bridges, schools and hospitals are in deplorable condition. Fewer people have access to drinking water or sewage systems than before the war. And Baghdad is averaging less than eight hours of electricity a day.

Since the 7 NCOs from the 82nd ABN writing in the NY Times didn't trigger the cut & run required we now get to hear from the dozen Captains, I assume followed by a pack of privates and ending with "two turtlenecks and a beer in a tree"

I'll disclaim as usual, and the left will ignore that as usual, I believe these people have every right to voice their opinion. That is undisputed, the question is how much weight should their thoughts carry. Jules Crittenden points out what is likely the single biggest factor in evaluating them. Only one has been in Iraq since 2005, the other 11 all served very early in the war and obviously their experiences would have been largely negative. What would an OpEd from 12 officers currently serving in al Anbar, or Diyala sound like?

We had very little success prior to this Spring and these officers got to live through our mistakes and see friends and comrades die for what seemed to them little progress. But the fact that this group includes no one who has been in country since the surge began makes it clearly an outdated viewpoint. I don't dispute that many of the difficulties they catalogue still present problems, but to completely discount the huge changes in the security situation, the Anbar Awakening, and even more important the recent alliances forged with Shiia sheiks is patently unfair.

We have plenty of hard work left in Iraq, and to follow the advice of these 12 would ensure that the civil war they expect comes and with that the collapse of any influence we had in the region. Their plan? Oh wait they don't have one, beyond "Run!".

There is one way we might be able to succeed in Iraq. To continue an operation of this intensity and duration, we would have to abandon our volunteer military for compulsory service. Short of that, our best option is to leave Iraq immediately. A scaled withdrawal will not prevent a civil war, and it will spend more blood and treasure on a losing proposition.

We will be conducting a scaled withdrawal because our plans are coming to fruition and we are winning. And although there will be more US casualties before we win, those will reinforce victory, not be added to the rolls of the defeated. Already much of Basra is pacified after the British have withdrawn, Al Qaeda in Iraq is crippled and has no prospects of re-building, casualties country-wide are at their lowest in years and momentum is solidly in our favor. I  know where these folks got their defeatism and it is sad that we have taken as long as we have to unscrew ourselves, but their voices sound eerily out of context and time. This OpEd should have been published last year.

Now we fight a battle scarcely recognizable from this trip down bad memory lane. They end with a fair statement.

America, it has been five years. It's time to make a choice.

I choose Victory!

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» Washington Posts Gang of 12 - the other shoe from This ain't Hell, but you can see it from here
Yesterday, the Washington Post headlined the paper with news that operations in Iraq were working and it seemed that our goals there attainable. That al Qaeda in Iraq Reported Crippled. Thinking it odd that Washington post would allow suc... [Read More]

Comments

[tankerbrosbrat]

Make mine a Guinness(which I will drink when msm drags out the next "retired" - but apparently not retiring - whatever!

ON to Victory!

[Dbltap]

Reminds me fondly of the days when I was a Captain and all knowing. The feeling wears off.

"Many roads, bridges, schools and hospitals are in deplorable condition"

However one would hope that the 82nd Airplane Gang could at least get some better traveled O-3's...

[Deebow]

Send the word, send the word to beware.
We'll be over, we're coming over,
And we won't come back till it's over
Over there.

My only question is; are these captains part of the the new Army Strong campaign? I mean, seems to me they aren't that strong.

If you asked a Marine who took Guadalcanal how he would assess the place when he first landed and how the campaign went, and then asked him 3 years later at the end of the war what he thought, I am going to guess he would think back to not having any food, being low on ammunition, the disease and the fighting and think that Guadalcanal still sucked.

Framing an argument based on opinions is very important. Especially if the people offering the opinions have nothing else to compare it too.

Not that the opinions of officers are not important, but last time I checked it took at least 15 Captains to equal 7 NCOs.

Onward To Victory!!!!

[defendusa]

Okay, never been in a combat zone only served...but WTF? Over? This sounds just like my little punk 0-3 who complained to me upon my forward of Deebow's post "Tired" that it was a just "junior NCO" who probably talked out his asss!! Someone who didn't understand the way things worked!! Bwahahaha! NCO's know much more of the daily ops than an 0-3 who MIGHT go outside the wire. If my little punkfullofhimself friend learned anything,it would have been to listen to those NCO's under his command and not to sit back and chest-puff. Which he now does in DC. It will take this guy years to grow into his now 0-4 decorated self as he still believes he knows all and they know nothing.

Deebow, you said it. Onward to VICTORY, leave the punks at home.

[john Ryan]

The retention rate of West Point grads is low. The most recent figures show about 1/2 leaving the Army at the first opportunity. These figures also do not show any grads who may have been unale to leave because of stop-loss issues. This is about 3 times higher than during the period 1977-86 and close to twice as high as durring the 90s even when the Army was downsizing.
I think that this is very significant.

[Rex]

Perhaps they didn't read the report from an Iraqi early on that the power was on an average of 2-3 hours per day under Saddam.

8 hours a day is quite an improvment.

[jordan]

It's great that these Captains feel they can express their opinions with impunity even when it disagrees with the statements and opinions of their superiors. That's how it should be, and it reinforces what the WaPo wrote about debates at Leavenworth the other day.

But to be at all intellectually honest, they themselves should have caveated up front that they were not on the ground past 2005, when things were at their worst. Their generalized critiques are sweeping, and provide no detailed examples: It's under-resourced, it's in shambles, roads and hospitals are deplorable, etc... They preface that with the question "How are things on the ground in Iraq now?" The answer they give is far from accurate, and it's like the surge never happened.

I've found soldiers who write about their experiences like to include specific incidents they saw, or examples to buttress their sweeping assertions. This article is a doom and gloom naysayer, and little else.

Also, it hits upon two key lefty anti-war agenda items (just saying): there should be a quick withdrawal now, not a scaled withdrawal, and there will have to be a draft.

A slow withdrawal looks like victory. A fast withdrawal looks like defeat. And who would want that?

The spectre of a draft is used by those opposing the war on the left just about every day. I'm not saying this is a Soros/MoveOn plant, but that the inclusion of these two particular points hints at what's behind it.

Twelve together. Did they serve together elsewhere? Was it a discussion group where a few groused about the war and changed the attitude of the others? Do they show concern about how their words might affect their brethren or reaffirm their dedication to serve? No. Even the NCO's in the older article did that.

[Dbltap]

The retention rate for West Point is indeed significant. I points out that a lot of Engineering School graduates don't like combat or deployment as much as they like a college education with no student loans. It also points out that the Army needs to take a hard look at both the course of study as well as who they admit.

[slowmo2007]

Badgers 6..who just finished a lengthy tour in Ramadi, is starting another tour and knows what is going on...disagrees:

16 October 2007
"Insurgents in Anbar Routed"

So says Colonel Simcock, Commander of US Marine Corps Regimental Combat Team 6.

Readers of Badgers Forward will remember that Team Badger spent most of its tour in country supporting RCT-6.

"There are still attacks in Fallujah and surrounding areas," said Colonel Simcock. "We have not killed or captured every single al-Qaida member that is here. But their capabilities are greatly diminished. I would characterize them as a defeated force from my perspective."

Speaking to reporters in Washington via satellite from Iraq, Colonel Simcock says the surge of more U.S. forces in Anbar and Baghdad has allowed Marines to stay in areas where al-Qaida in Iraq terrorists have fled to prevent insurgents from returning.

I read and hear frequently about service members who think their tours in Iraq did not make a difference. I think that is sad, because the probably have no idea what a great impact they did have. Fortunately Team Badger Soldiers don't have that problem.

http://badgersforward.blogspot.com/2007/10/insurgents-in-anbar-routed.html

[jordan]

Agreed, Dbltap. I'm still burning over a couple of Academy candidate poster boys who were refused last year.

Ran across this on Military Motivator, since Deebow brought up Guadalcanal: "Hell, these are Marines. Men like these held Guadalcanal and took Iwo Jima. Baghdad ain't sh*t."

[Old Tanker]

There are war time officers and peace time officers (NCO's too)

Let's not forget the warrior officers that have been frequently profiled here...hell, one of them was just awarded and MOH!

[Old Tanker]

jordan

here is the link to YOUR Military Motivator

[Francis Marion]

Just more tactically minded people incapable of strategic thinking. I actually take consolation in the fact that they are no longer infecting my army with their ignorance.

[Tom W.]

These captains sure aren't made of the same stern stuff as their fathers and grandfathers.

Thanks for your service, captains. Now STFU and let those with more backbone win the war. If you don't want to play anymore, get out.

Onward to victory.

[rick554]

Geez these appeasers just cant get anything right. I cant wait to see the official bios of this crew. Anyone wonder how many jawn cary's might be on THIS list???

[Arch]

I saw this srticle earlier at Captain's Quarters and posted a version of this:

"All GIs bitch - captains included - especially on remote combat tours. As a captain at DaNang - I bitched. I think it's a rule. How many captains have rotated through Iraq? You're a captain for 6 years? They are 5% of the unit manpower? 140,000 troops times 5 years times 5% is 35,000 captains. 12 out of 35,000 is 0.0342%. Doesn't sound like a mutiny to me.

"I say listen to what they suggest. If any of it is valid, act on it. If not, thank them for their interest in national defense and go on to the next problem."

Remember these are young men & women who believe they know all and have all the answers.

The older I get the more I appreciate what Socrates said, "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."

[MICHAEL in MI]

Curt at Flopping Aces has some interesting background on these Captains in addition to their deployment years (which exposes that they are out of touch, since none of them have been a part of the 2007 turnaround): Burying the Victory in Iraq

The Left will take this criticism and accuse us of course of not supporting the troops or calling them "phony soldiers", because they are critical of the war effort. Not so. We are criticizing their knowledge, not their service. Their service contributed a part to the overall turnaround. They should be proud of that fact. But they should also now support their brothers and sisters in arms who are now achieving great success and progress. And they should not speak of things of which they have no knowledge. They have knowledge of their particular time in Iraq and of their particular area. That's it.

[MICHAEL in MI]

I found this comment left at Flopping Aces interesting as well:

The author of the piece is Jason Blindauer. The others may have signed it but he wrote it. It appears his motivation for the op-ed is his continuing quest to see a draft initiated in the US. Here is his website:

http://www.nationalserviceact.com/index.html

The WaPo piece is very similar to his other editorials. Oh, and he is an affiliate of Votevets.

Isn't it interesting that VoteVets and Moveon.ogres and groups of their ilk get print space in the national "news"papers, yet groups like Vets for Freedom do not.

[Cannoneer No4]

I'll see your 12 Captains and raise you one Gunner.

[douglas]

Look, as soon as you get to their 'solution' being the draft, you know it's all preposterous political claptrap. That's not a solution to anything, and it's unnecessary. Classic overreaction.

[Allan]

I pull out the hypocrite card.

On the one hand, you say "sure it was crap in 2006 and before, but now it is better, so these opinions do not mean much."

But in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006 you were attacking the idea that things were going bad. If you were wrong then, why should you be right now?

The only consistent position would be "sure, I was wrong about the situation then. I may be wrong about the situation now. We may be in a terrible morass. But, even so, we have to suck it up and carry this through to victory, even if it means losing tens of thousands of troops and wrecking our economy."

In addition, you should be willing to say that this war may well be stretching our military too thin and we need a draft (or at least a much larger fighting force in Iraq).

Anything else shows you are a hypocrite.

[douglas]

Negative, Allan.

From the post:
"Only one has been in Iraq since 2005, the other 11 all served very early in the war and obviously their experiences would have been largely negative."

You said:
On the one hand, you say "sure it was crap in 2006 and before, but now it is better, so these opinions do not mean much."

First, it's poor form to put double quotes around something following the words "you say" when they didn't say it. If you're paraphrasing use single quotes. It's worse form when it's a faulty paraphrase.

THEIR experiences may well have been crappy. When you're up close to the dirty work, with no clear (to you) objective in sight, and things like the Majority Leader of the Senate at home stating "this war is lost", you might think things don't look too good. You might also be wrong about the bigger picture.

As for "wrecking our economy", care to expound on how that's going to happen?

The Draft? you must be kidding. And why is it either a draft or a larger fighting force in Iraq? When all violence metrics are down, why would we need more troops in Iraq? Larger forces I understand (larger cycles of rotations), but more troops in theater?

[Ymarsakar]

And why is it either a draft or a larger fighting force in Iraq?

Because that then allows Allan more forces to redirect to fix the problem. When Allan figures out how to fix the problem, he'll tell you, but until then, he wants more resources rediverted to his command or the commands of people he approves of.

But in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006 you were attacking the idea that things were going bad.

Actually, what most people wanted was for folks to stop complaining and actually try to help fix the problem. When they complain, they got lambasted precisely because we don't like hearing people whine all the time.

The idea that things were going worse is the idea that things in Iraq are inevitable. Such a philosophy could not be consistent with American belief in free will.

Anything else shows you are a hypocrite.

When was the last time you checked out the logical fallacies concerning either/or?