SF Snipers in trouble???? For What????

Posted By Deebow

No good decision has ever been made from a swivel chair....

It is amazing to come home and see the war from this hemisphere, because having been there rather recently, and having been in a gunfight or two; as well as operating with a few SF Soldiers from different groups during some raids and operations, I think I have a unique perspective on this situation.

As with all operations, there are things that change from unit to unit and from rotation to rotation.  Individual units might want to change the times that chow is served, how the Ammunition Supply Point is manned, when the fuel needs to be ordered etc.  One thing that doesn't change much is the ROE, and the reason for that is every soldier needs to be on the same page in order properly execute their assigned mission.  The evolution of the ROE, unfortunately, sometimes comes from lessons learned and paid for in blood.

The last ODA that my Afghan compadres and I operated with had a boss that believed in order to reduce and/or eliminate casualties, his guys would only operate at night.  There was no convincing this guy that the Taliban don't really work that way (at least in our AO) and that the effectiveness of his men would be greatly reduced by operating this way.  Made it awfully hard to do some of the missions we knew would be successful, if only for this restriction.

I am not certain where LTG Kearney has his head.  Evidently, he is another general who is allergic to the application of precision high powered rifle fire.  I was under the impression that SF Soldiers (and all soldiers in general) operating in their battle-space were supposed to identify and kill the bad guys.  I tried like hell while I was in Afghanistan to find out why we were not picking more guys off like this instead of dropping 2,000 pound bombs.  Bullet or bomb, you get the same result, but my belief is that I would rather send that soldier with a high powered rifle.  That is one of the only ways I know of to be sure you got what you were aiming at.

The bottom line is this:  If we are going to get in the business of second guessing and micromanaging the moves of our most elite soldiers down to the lowest levels, then we absolutely are going to lose this war.  I don't want that, you don't want that, and all the Blackfiveagins definitely don't want that.  The situations that soldiers find themselves in, especially SF Soldiers, out on the Afghan/Pak Border do not call for ensuring you have a good lawyer and liability insurance; they call for decisiveness, willingness to execute your plan violently, fire superiority, stealth, and bold action.  Situations like this will cause other soldiers to hesitate, because they are thinking that maybe this could happen to them; and hesitation in combat means you go home in a flag draped box. Soldiers should not have to wonder if their superiors are going to support their actions.  They should know that, apart from blatant violations of the UCMJ, that the actions they take against the enemy will be backed by their commanders, all the way to the top.

I know that SF units process targets and bad guys through a process we call "vetting."  We worked with them often enough to understand how this is done, as well as why this is done.  If you come up on the radar screen of an SF unit operating somewhere overseas in combat, it is not because you are praying too loud in your mosque or not fasting during Ramadan; it is because you are a sh*tbag terrorist, supporter, or financier.

So, if Mr. Sh*tbag terrorist was on the list, it meant he was "in play" and that meant that he was available to receive a number of forms of attention from Coalition forces, up to and including immediate high velocity cranial lead poisoning.  Sometimes we raid and search their homes, their uncles' home, their madrassa, or their village.  Sometimes we cruise around looking to pick a fight with them, hoping they will try to ambush us.  Sometimes we do nothing at all, hoping they will show themselves at a time and place that is to our advantage, at which point we crush them.

I propose we give these two men medals for their actions and promote them immediately.

It is no wonder the Taliban and Al-Qaeda terrorists we actually capture laugh at us and say that we are weak.

I got another idea.  We fought and won World War II, a massive, world-wide, conventional, mechanized war of maneuver with half as many generals commanding easily twice as many troops in the field fighting against a determined foe who sought our destruction. 

How about we try doing the same thing in this war?

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Comments

[The Wolf]

Bingo post, Deebow! Don't pick the easy fights! :)

As the book ''Lone Survivor'' stated, the SEAL team was only worried about the press on their missions- WTH kind of way to fight a war is THAT?

[cirby]

I think it's because a lot of folks don't think people can actually do things of that, er, caliber.

I've met more than one guy who thinks that bullets almost never hit, no matter who aims them (true in general, but not in this case), and that high-precision sniping is purely a Hollywood invention. When I mentioned that I could make a colander out of him at 300 yards or so, and that I really suck at this compared to the real pros, he wouldn't believe me...

Then you have the folks who think that targeting ANYONE from a distance, no matter who they are, is wrong. Seriously. If you send someone in to put a couple of neatly-spaced holes in an avowed terrorist, they believe you're in the wrong - because it might not be the right guy. Better to let him go.

[Haole_Wahine]

OMG I'm glad you back and posting. We needed you OUT THERE, but we need you here shouting this stuff from the highest points we can find. Blackfive . . . Thanks for bringing this guy on board.

NEVER FORGET

Petty Officer Danny Dietz (SEAL Team 1)
Petty Officer Matthew Axelson (SEAL Team 1)
Navy Lt. Mike Murphy (SEAL Team 1)

[Ghost of Habu, The Pit Viper]

We are in need of a two-fold solution here:

1) Get the ROE to where the snipers can operate effectively
2) Reduce the number of General officers, too many of whom appear to be clueless to what this fight is really like out there at the pointy end of things.

Here's an idea:

Let's adopt a military version of "Loser Pays". Only in this case, if you bring charges against soldiers directly involved in combat operations (as it appears LTG Kearney has done) and it ends up that you lose your case (or no charges are actually adjudicated), you are immediately retired at your previous rank (not current, back one level). No appeals, etc. - YOU GONE! See Ya!

Won't have to happen too many times before some folks get the idea not to mess in combat operations.

[casstx]

This stinks of politics and I fully agree with your comment about Kearney being allergic to the application of precision high powered rifle fire. I can also guess exactly where his head is. Great commentary. I sent it to my husband, who is a sniper too. He's livid about this and is thinking of requesting written orders from the White House before he takes another shot.

[Old Tanker]

So Deebow, I'm not sure where you stand on this???

/sarc

I gotta admit, we have too mant stars sitting around if they have time to review all of these after action reports and decide whether or not there was a violation of ROE.

Okay, so Mr. Sparkle should be here to talk about what cowboys the US military are compared to the Brits, the London papers all say so.....3....2....1....

[defendusa]

Wolf,
I had the same thought as you. When soldiers are trained to be snipers, to me that equals "the kill". I am very pi**ed off about this because as in Lone S, political correctness and political moves for power or rank seem to trump the true rules of engagement and constantly put our best and brightest at risk. I am tired of the shi* that keeps coming out about the ROE. We persecute the intentions and actions of soldiers doing what they were trained to do, yet engaged in war and it is absolutely f-ing ridiculous. Haven't they learned anything from SEAL Team 1's mission at all? I never cried so much in my life while I read that book. True patriots, those guys, Dietz, Axe, Murphy and Luttrell.

[65D]

Good post D, I think that only the Marines have held true to keeping leadership at the lowest level. They have a nick-name for their corporals, I believe. Can't come up with it right now, need the help of a Devil Dog. It has long been the M.O. of the Army to adjust and sway with the rising of the PC era. However, the Army is a massive organization, and coupled with the relaxed demeanor of staffers, it is no wonder that some of the most agonizing stories from both fronts have involved the thick-headed stars laying out that red tape.

"High velocity cranial lead poisoning." Classic. Love it.

Thanks, Deebow. I look forward to your posts.

65D

[Mr.Sparkle]

Old Tanker has a 4th hand on his watch called ITSA MAGIC EXTRA POWER SPARKLE TIME!

Soldiers need discipline to run properly with all the things they have to do and witness. I think LTG Kearney is either going to be vindicated, he clearly isn't a stupid man and to charge US soldiers with murder - there must be a shocking twist here, otherwise if there isn't a twist LTG Kearney is going to take a lot of flak.

[OldSoldier54]

"...if there isn't a twist LTG Kearney is going to take a lot of flak." -
Yeah, hopefully in the form of a proximity fused 155mm Anti Personnel round. Another imbecile wearing stars.

And Ghost of Habu, I REALLY LIKE that idea!

This stinks just like that situation that went down with that MARSOC company a while back. Do you know anything you can share about that issue, Deebow?

[Old Tanker]

Mr. Sparkle,

If ever someone made me look like a genius it had to be...well...you...swell....

You'd better remember how the press in your country as well as ours treats these things....Presumed guilty until proven innocent.

65D not that I disagree with you concerning PC and the Army, but the Marines??? You recall Haditha?(you too Mr. Sparkle) PC is all over the services, except combat arms in any of the services. What we're talking about is REMF's. I don't want to lump all REMF's in here either, certainly not the guys that brought me class 1, 2, and 3!!!

[Teresa]

I posted my initial thoughts over at Uncle J's post earlier today. I am SO glad Matt got you in here posting - that was an excellent assessment. Thank you!

Also, I think Ghost of Habu, The Pit Viper is absolutely right. The only thing that will stop this nonsense is to make it painful for the person bringing the accusation. As it stands, these poor men have to defend themselves - that means they have to expend time, energy and money to keep from being railroaded into jail - just for doing their damned jobs!

After all that, if Kearney loses this battle and these men are acquitted - what does he lose? Nothing - not a damned thing at all and that's just wrong on every level.

How many men are going to die because LTG Kearney decided to stick his nose into the war and play footsie with the ROE? This is the stupidest way to run a war I've ever heard of... it's like one of our very own Generals wants us to lose - whose side is he on? You know I really have to wonder about that.

[Bob]

If I were a sniper I would request reassignment and refuse sniper activities.

And I would encourage my peers to do the same.

The ROE now makes it illegal to perform those duties.

[Bob]

If I were a sniper I would request reassignment and refuse sniper activities.

And I would encourage my peers to do the same.

The ROE now makes it illegal to perform those duties.

[Cincinnati_Bob]

Old Tanker /sarc/ Special Amphib Recon Corpsman.. ?

[redc1c4]

65D:
i believe you were refering to "Strategic Corporal":

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/strategic_corporal.htm

redc1c4,
who gave up on promotions when he figured out "SGT" was the new "PFC".....(at least in his units. %-)

[Old Tanker]

Cinnci,

no, I was closing my html sarcasm tag....

[David M]

Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 09/21/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.

[gmwashingtondc]

Oreilly is following this case and Kearney.
Vote Murtha/Kearney in '08...There is hope for the Taliban!