Winning The Information War

Posted By Laughing_Wolf

In the comments to this post, chiropetra noted:

Yet clearly we have to respond. We are losing this battle and with it we are likely to lose the war. Someone has to stand up and fight back for America. The military can't fight on this battlefield. The government is hamstrung. Who's left?

There is an answer to that: Michael Yon, Michael Totten, Matt Sanchez, and -- most of all -- YOU!

It is you who make them possible, through your continuing financial support, which makes possible their long-term presence there.

It is you who can make much more possible: Wesley Morgan, Joe Talley, Bill Ardolino, David Tate, the Blackfive JSOTF-P embed, and myself. Shorter visits, but specific targets and a larger area can be covered. Each of us can only be at one place at any given time, so the more that are there, the more that can be covered.

To support this information war surge, Public Multimedia Inc. is attempting to raise $20,000 in the next three weeks. If you want to support a particular embed, simply note that it is for that person; or, you can note that it is for the Blackfive embeds. Personally, I would like to see the $20,000 not just raised, but exceeded so that other embeds can get out there as quickly as possible.

Tankerbrosbrat nailed it:

"Who's left?" Why, the bloggers of course..Just Sayin'...

We are stepping forward, because it is time and past time for this surge to take place. But, we can't do it without your help.

OldSoldier54 correctly points out:

I also believe the counter battery fire from the Milblogs and others like Mike Yon, Bill Roggio, Iraq the Model, etc has been increasing in density. And folks are starting to notice.

People are starting to notice, for good and for ill. The shape of the information battlefield is changing, and you can see from some of the trolls here and elsewhere that an effort to push back is underway. Yet, the pushback is because such efforts are being successful. Detailed, honest coverage is there, and it is getting notice. We just need more.

What happens now is up to you. Please, please, please continue to donate to those doing excellent long-term coverage. And, I ask you to step up and help us mount the surge. Donate right now to the PMI fundraising effort The right boots on the ground are important to much more than COIN. Help us get more informational boots on the ground.

Also, take the time to make a donation to Soldier's Angels. The Team Blackfive embeds are honored to represent this wonderful organization on our travels. Their support for our troops, and our embeds, can't be overstated. Help them to help others.

On a side note, I plan to start writing soon about preparing for my embed at my site. The mundane, the humorous, the serious -- even training via bison calf sprints -- will be there. Also, if you made a donation directly to me at my site, my thanks to each of you once again. If you did not get a personal thank you, drop me a line as it means your donation did not reach me for some reason. If you donated directly to PMI, I don't have your contact information, but you do have my sincere thanks.

Who's left? You are. Your support is essential to keeping people in the field, and to our surge. With continued support, we can do more: more people, more trips, more coverage.

Please step forward. What happens now really is up to you.

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Comments

[odanny]

.........."People are starting to notice, for good and for ill. The shape of the information battlefield is changing, and you can see from some of the trolls here and elsewhere that an effort to push back is underway. Yet, the pushback is because such efforts are being successful."........

Oh please. You think people are "pushing back" because the "surge" is "successful"?

Americans are sick of this neocon war, one where two draft dodgers like Bush and Cheney continue to pathetically push at the American public numned by their doomsday shrieks of terrorists. At this point, after their string of lies and failures on almost every level, who in the reality based community trusts, believes, or even cares what they say?

When was the last time a Western powerr arrogantly invaded an Arab land and, following one textbook example after another of overreach, recklessness, incompetence and ignorance, built a "Democracy"?

We wont even build a Saddam style dictatorship there to our liking. This is worse than the Israeli's displacing 800,000 Palestinians in the late 40's, and the hatred toward this country will burn just as bright as it does towards Israel.

Yet defense contractors get rich and send more troops to die in Iraq for their profits, while the energy/oil cartel headed by Bush/Cheney continue to try and steal as much of their oil, LEGALLY (as in permissible under Iraqi law) as they can.

Dying for oil and lies. Yep, folks are waking up, and a majority now realize this.

[twolaneflash]

"odanny boy,
the pipe, the pipe
you're smoking.

from lie to lie,
and down surrender's side.

my son, my son
back to iraq is going.

and you, he'll defend,
though he die for your worthless hide."

sing along, odanny, you know the tune.

[twolaneflash]

odanny, please change your name. It offends my Celtic and Irish, which, when offended, are Spartan. The embeds supported here bring a truth and a reality of what is in Iraq outside the wire. Your wimpy mantra of oil, ill-gotten gains, stupid soldiers dying for nothing, ad nauseum, has been vomited by so many haters that it has lost its force of reason or strength. These men risk their lives to be the eyes and ears and hearts for those hundreds of thousands of us family members with loved one in harm's way. You disrepect us all with your tripe. That this add fuel to your flaming hatred, which criticizes all and creates none, is my regret.

"Oh Danny boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling
From glen to glen, and down the mountain side
The summer's gone, and all the flowers are dying
'Tis you, 'tis you must go and I must bide.
But come ye back when summer's in the meadow
Or when the valley's hushed and white with snow
'Tis I'll be here in sunshine or in shadow
Oh Danny boy, oh Danny boy, I love you so.

And if you come, when all the flowers are dying
And I am dead, as dead I well may be
You'll come and find the place where I am lying
And kneel and say an "Ave" there for me.

And I shall hear, tho' soft you tread above me
And all my dreams will warm and sweeter be
If you'll not fail to tell me that you love me
I'll simply sleep in peace until you come to me.

I'll simply sleep in peace until you come to me."

[johnston45]

Who trusts, believes, and cares what they say? **raises hand** I do.

[Rich Casebolt]

Oh please. You think people are "pushing back" because the "surge" is "successful"?

Then why are you coming here, instead of letting us implode in our "ignorance"?

You are proving LW's point, thank you.

who in the reality based community trusts, believes, or even cares what they say?

From what I see, any resembelence of the "reality-based community" you reside in to actual reality is purely coincidental.

However, I do care what you say ... for if you repeat your Big Lies enough without challenge, some may believe them.

After all, you have no qualms smearing the reputation of a Man who, by his conduct over many years, has ALREADY earned our nation's trust with its most dangerous weapons, by stating that:

Sadly, you represent the very worst this country has to offer with your backwards ignorance and propensity for violence to remove any "threat", which usually is anyone who thinks differently than you.

Dying for oil and lies. Yep, folks are waking up, and a majority now realize this.

If, as Michael Yon reports, the Iraqis now realize that we are not there for Oil and Empire, do you really think that the American people aren't realizing the same thing, now that they have -- and are getting more, from LW and others -- alternatives to the truly faulty intelligence of this war ... the yellow-streaked journalism of the MSM ... available to them?

How many REAL examples do you have to support your assertions about war profiteering ... let alone the "erosion" of our civil liberties?

We know who the real liar is, here ... for if nothing else, your assertions about Subsunk speak volumes about your lack of fact-checking integrity.

BTW, being that I am an engineer in a small firm that does most of its business with the DOD, I do take your lies about defense contractors and war profiteering personally.

Not only are we not awash in a sea of cash ... not only are smaller firms often taking the business away from the Big Dogs, giving the lie to the conspiracy of the "military-industrial" complex you'd like us to believe (after all, if the conspiracy is there, why would its members allow "upstarts" to come in and steal customers from them?) ...

... my work and my products SAVE LIVES, by enhancing the situational awareness and accuracy of our warfighters -- assisting them in killing more of the enemy, quicker, before they can kill them -- and assisting them in killing the enemy while leaving the innocent standing.

You are one scared parrot ... that is why you perch here and blindly repeat your talking points, just like the unlamented Lord HaWW HaWW before you.

so ... odanny wanna cracker?

[Grimmy]

Once upon a time, not so very long ago, it was understood that every citizen had this as a duty during a time of war or distress.

It is every citizens' duty to stand up against the propagandists of the enemy. Such a thing was known for the universal truth it is, before the betrayers were allowed to gain such prominence, and before so many of our own were taught to stay on their knees in submitting to the betrayers.

There are few taboos that are universal to all cultures at all times in all periods of history. Betrayal during war is one of those.

There is nothing innocent about betrayers, no matter the reason given for it. Adherence to an enemy's propaganda is to join with the enemy in heart and mind.

[chiropetra]

Yet another pushback loon in full cry.

Getting a little desperate, are we Danny?
I'll note that facts have never been your strong point, but this latest outpouring of bile reeks of panic.

But then what can you do when the ground is being systematically cut out from under you by an inconvenient concatenation of facts, inconveniently reported?

One wonders why you bother to post such content-free tantrums on a site where you know you'll get nothing but abuse.

Or perhaps abuse is to your taste.

/\oo/\ (in a nasty mood)

[chiropetra]

And appropos of Danny Boy's latest emission, check out today's "Day by Day at:
http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2007/08/23/#004261

Sums up the situation nicely, I think.

[Caper2]

Ladies and Gents:

I expect that as September and the time for General Petraus report rolles in. We are going to see more of our friend odanny and fellow travellers of its ilk, the 5th columnists of this war. As they vainly tried to stempt the growing support for our armed services by expreading their particular brand of filth.

It worked once during Tet offensive where there was not an internet to refute the disinformation spread through the MSM. But no anymore.

Smarter ones like our (s)odonny had realized this, hence their desesperation as they sprout the same arguments. Hoping that if they shout lies long enough it would be taken for truths.

I said to him and others of his comrades.

NO THIS TIME AND NO THIS WAR!

El Coqui.

[Allan]

There is an inherent tension between the need to show a united front in war and the first amendment.

Just as there is an inherent tension between the justification to suppress of other forms of speech (hate speech) and the first amendment.

The answer our society has developed is not to suppress, but to persuade with speech of one's own.

In this case Laughing_Wolf is correct. If you think your position is so good, persuade the masses with more speech. If there is no market for the speech you do not like, it will not receive a mass reception.

As for the influence of the media, you may have it backwards. Perhaps the media is reflecting the view of the country, and not creating it. Perhaps the majority of the country does not like this war. Perhaps the majority of the country does not like this war because it has not been prosecuted well and the president has needlessly sacrificed our country's best and brightest. (Caveat: the needless sacrifice is argued to be the result of bad strategy, not of flawed goals - even John McCain and people on this board have agreed that the war was prosecuted badly from March 2003 until the instutionalization of COIN).

[Grimmy]

Allen:

You are wrong. This idea that adherence to the cause of the enemy is ok, just a matter of a difference of opinion, and protected as a 1st Amendment guarantee, is the creation of leftist spin doctors from the late 50's, through the '60s and was firmly established as a revised reality by the late 70s.

There is also the issue of federal law. Indulging in disinformation for purposes of disrupting a military operation and/or supporting the efforts of the enemy is a felony.

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 115--TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES

Sec. 2388. Activities affecting armed forces during war

(a) Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or
conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with
the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United
States or to promote the success of its enemies; or
Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully causes or
attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of
duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or willfully
obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to
the injury of the service or the United States, or attempts to do so--
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty
years, or both.
(b) If two or more persons conspire to violate subsection (a) of
this section and one or more such persons do any act to effect the
object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall
be punished as provided in said subsection (a).
(c) Whoever harbors or conceals any person who he knows, or has
reasonable grounds to believe or suspect, has committed, or is about to
commit, an offense under this section, shall be fined under this title
or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(d) This section shall apply within the admiralty and maritime
jurisdiction of the United States, and on the high seas, as well as
within the United States.

[Grimmy]

Allen:
"As for the influence of the media, you may have it backwards. Perhaps the media is reflecting the view of the country, and not creating it."

The pattern of malfeasance and dishonesty by many of our media has been well established since this war began.

Only adherents to the cause of the enemy, such as yourself, can pretend it to be otherwise.

[21stCenturyMike]

Folks, odanny does not think individually, has no real grasp of history, and has yet to understand that violence can solve an issue (unless you are talking about the violence used by those protesting against bush's war or other important cause of the day).

So, we should move on to important matters like providing some funding for Grimm or Michael Yon or other groups or people that are doing great things. It would not hurt to send an email to the whitehouse to encourage the current President Bush to give more public comments on the War on Terror and other important issues as he did at the VFW.

We need to hear from the President that things are moving forward. We need to know that he is engaged and that he is trying to make things better. I want to hear him say that the surge is working and that progress is being made and that he is working to get the military more people, gear, and beans. I want to hear him agree with all the voices that say we do not have the military strength needed and ask Congress to drop everything else and double the size of the Military to meet the need (I am willing to bet that they can find enough people to fill those position in short order, once they re-open a bunch of training bases and get some new instructors in place). If the issue is that our military is too small, then we need to make it bigger. If the issue is that we do not have proper armor, we need to get proper armor. If the issue is that we do not have the right guns or ammo, then we need to get the right guns and ammo. And for all of you that do not know how the US Gov'ment works - that is the job of the US Congress and generally starts in the HOUSE of representatives. So, it is Nancy Pelosi who is currently responsible for getting the ball rolling. Congress has a lot to answer for in all of this and they need to give the Military the tools and rules that will allow us to win and leave in the shortest amount of time.

So, write to Nancy Pelosi, not o-dan-the-male-child. Male children do not generally have a well formed opinion, but Mr. Bush and Ms. Pelosi do have real authority to make changes in Military operations and funding. Mr. Bush found us a real General, now we need Ms. Pelosi to find him enough resources to get the job done.

I want to remind you that the left will keep finding issues with whatever is done, so the best thing we can do is fix those that can be fixed. I am not sure we need more troops to fight this war. But who am I to question these very smart people on the left we need more troops and congress should fund more troops to fix the problem. We do not need to draft people, we just need to create billets and open the doors to anyone who can do the jobs (maybe we use the fat guys to move cargo and guard doors, and the blind to count bullets, and the deaf to test guns, and the fools to clean buildings, and etc...; we do not need a combat ready soldier to move cargo, or guard every door, or do a lot of other jobs, but we can use non-combat soldiers to do that work). Just as we did during WWII. I am out of shape, but I can not see a real reason that I could not do the same job I did while active duty (I do a lot of that same type of work all the time in my current job). So, if that is the issue, lets change the rules for entry, create non-combat roles, open training facilities, open billets, advertise the new opportunities to serve, and open the doors (better step back out of the way). My guess is that you will have too many people in a day or two, if not offer a fast track to US citizenship for anyone serving 6 years. My point is that we need to start fixing the problems, every damn one of them, every damn time. Because, before long we will have fixed everything that is broke and then we will have won the war or we will get to the real issue. In the meantime we will have a better military, with better equipment, and if we are lucky better leadership in the military ranks (in case the Whitehouse is reading this, it is time to retire some of the old and/or useless people. This is easy to make happen, order all personnel who have not served in Iraq or Afghanistan to be assigned to one of those areas effective today without regard to age, rank, or current assignment. They must fill available billets asap and put in a timeline. Start at the top in Washington DC and move out as you need to fill billets). We just need to clean house and get people in who want to win, are willing to fight, and have skills that we need.

We need to “Get‘er Done”

mike

[Grimmy]

...fools to clean buildings...

I can do that, if allowed to set my own hours. Chronic insomnia does make keeping a day schedule real difficult.

I can also admit that I'm not too proud to scrub toilets for a good cause.

A civilian volunteer system would be interesting.

[Rich Casebolt]

Perhaps the media is reflecting the view of the country, and not creating it.

Even though New Media has made great inroads into their theater since 2001, the MSM is still the primary intelligence source for The People.

And their single-sided presentation of the facts on the ground ... that is, when they are not engaged in "fake but accurate" accusations like Rathergate and the TNR/Beauchump affair ... is faulty intelligence.

The scope and impact of that faulty intelligence upon the war effort, IMO, is far more destructive than that of the CIA.

Perhaps the majority of the country does not like this war because it has not been prosecuted well and the president has needlessly sacrificed our country's best and brightest.

An opinion based primarily on that faulty intelligence above ... presented in a historical vacuum that ignores the errors -- and recovery from those errors -- made by men we consider heroes today.

Or, could this be projection of an opinion derived from an ideological predisposition to consider this war a "war of choice" ... instead of a necessary response to an asymmetrical conflict forced upon our civilization by totalitarian thugs?

If you think this is a war-of-choice, I question your judgment, Allan.

If you think this is not a war-of-choice, then I also question your judgment ... because you never seem to have a justified alternative to the leadership of this President, while you continue your criticism.

That would be a failure of planning ... that is, planning the transition from what kind of works, to what really works.

Without that planning, we could easily wind up with a leadership that doesn't work at all in regards to this conflict.

How about being part of the solution, instead of just talking about what you see is a problem?

Give me someone you can PROVE to me, is better.

[girlfriendofasoldier]

ODanny,

You say, "At this point, after their string of lies and failures on almost every level, who in the reality based community trusts, believes, or even cares what they say?" ...

The TROOPS care what they have to say, and they care what you ignorant sons-of-beasts have to say as well! Don't you realize or even care how your nonchalant attitude is affecting our troops? Our troops who are in harms way every day- fighting for your fu*king safety and freedom?

IMAO has it right with their logo: Shoot the moon! They don't deserve to live! You may want to consider them American Taliban. The hatred that they spew should not be tolerated.

I don't see you ODanny in Iraq with an AK-47 a 40-lb backpack in full gear- in 120 degree heat hunting terrorists! I don't see you out there supporting the people protecting you! You're biting the hand that feeds you ODanny- Therefore- if you're not a part of the solution- you're a part of the problem, buddy!

I wish you were here in front of me because my eyes are on FIRE. ((And I wouldn't spit on you if you were.))

Excuse this erradic post- as my screen name suggests- touchy topic!

[Deltabravo]

Woohoo, Girlfriend! You tell him!! I secretly suspect most of Dannyboy's anxiety stems from the fact that we probably don't find his kind (the hide under the bed during your country's hour of need kind) very attractive.

While we see soldiers, Marines, airmen as... pretty hot.

He's feeling superfluous and he comes here to whine about it.

And let me tell you something... the MSM and the pollsters seem to take for granted that every woman out there is panting for ObamaOsama. Not hardly! Most of us want strong leadership who will keep our country safe, do what they say they're going to do, and give our fathers, brothers, husbands, sons and boyfriends the tools they need to get the job done right the first time.

And we for sure don't want some stupid mullah throwing a black tablecloth over our heads and telling us to shut up!

Which is where Danny's antics would have us end up if he were allowed to take that ball and and run with it.

There is a sizeable women's vote out there that is watching very closely. We are very able to see through the claptrap the MSM feeds us. The politicians should ignore us at their own peril. We vote!

And gentlemen, please don't take the apparently growing female presence on these milblog sites as any kind of insult, or a signal to abandon the treefort. It's more like a signal that other venues have fallen far short of the mark and the girls are tired of being spoonfed garbage by the MSM.

(Now back to your regularly-scheduled programming....)

[girlfriendofasoldier]

DELTA B!!!

You said, "the girls are tired of being spoonfed garbage by the MSM."

RIGHT ON!!

*High Five*

[Grimmy]

Deltabravo:

I can only speak for myself, of course, and what I think really only matters to me...or those stuck in the same car while going down the freeway on a long treck...or maybe sitting next to me on an airplane...but I appreciate the women folk around here.

At the very least, y'all's being here reminds me not to cuss.

Oh, and no offense meant, but I thought you were a guy, anyway. Name ends in "o". That's a guy thing usually, aint it?

[Deltabravo]

Grimmy, no harm done. I was taught my abc's Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo... hence the Deltabravo. Didn't mean to confuse anyone otherwise.

Cuss away. There's much to cuss at. I've probably heard all the words the USN/USMC can invent anyway.

[liyak]

Info is greater than ieds etc!
But so far,no one has the right:INFO,to undue the terorists.Mise well read,how Babylon fell,right?Since no one is,up to this point!Why?Because,they think they are,GOD!Hence an inverted info,base.

[Laughing Wolf]

twolaneflash, that wins comment of the week as far as I am concerned!

As for liyak, not shure what they are taking, but seems like some primo stuff...

LW

[odanny]

...."The TROOPS care what they have to say, and they care what you ignorant sons-of-beasts have to say as well! Don't you realize or even care how your nonchalant attitude is affecting our troops? Our troops who are in harms way every day- fighting for your fu*king safety and freedom?".......

Unfortunately, that mantra is not rooted in truth. The troops are NOT fighting for my "freedom", and as far as fighting for my "safet", they are fighting for their safety in a civil war they should not be refereeing.

It's only one of many crimes of their civilian leadership, their criminally reckless misuse in Iraq.

Perhaps, if you want to hear the truth, you can go to YouTube.com and in the search box type "Dick Cheney discussing Iraq in 1994" and find his comments given at the AEI where he discusses, making perfect sense, the "quagmire" of invading Iraq. Cheney was someone who coldly caluculated the costs of invading Iraq and he was 100% correct. I really dont know what happened to him, I can only guess that absolute power corrupts absolutely. In 2002 and 2003 he was dead wrong.

......."I don't see you ODanny in Iraq with an AK-47 a 40-lb backpack in full gear- in 120 degree heat hunting terrorists! I don't see you out there supporting the people protecting you! You're biting the hand that feeds you ODanny- Therefore- if you're not a part of the solution- you're a part of the problem, buddy!".....

Actually, you got it backwards. If you support the troops you realize the futility of keeping them in Iraq as IED targets, and to continue the fatally flawed policies of the neocons by spending their blood. Supporting the troops means ENOUGH of the lip service and magnetic ribbons and MUCH MORE speaking out on bringing them home and ending this debacle

[odanny]

........."Folks, odanny does not think individually, has no real grasp of history, and has yet to understand that violence can solve an issue (unless you are talking about the violence used by those protesting against bush's war or other important cause of the day)."...........

Oh reallllllly?

I'd say the only way I think is individually, the opposite of the herd mentality on display here. Furthermore, I'd stack up my knowledge of history against anyone on this board.

You likely dont even know who, why, or when Iraq as we knew it (pre-2003) was created. Among many other facets of world history.

And as far as violence "solving" anything, take a look at Iraq today for a textbook example of the power of violence to solve anything.

Of course, when the problems stem from WMD that pose a threat to every American, that should be a red flag that the argument for violence is debunked before you type your first persuasive argument.

Try again.

[Deltabravo]

Here, Danno, I'll type real slow so you'll understand...

YOU SAY:

Dick Cheney discussing Iraq in 1994" and find his comments given at the AEI where he discusses, making perfect sense, the "quagmire" of invading Iraq. Cheney was someone who coldly caluculated the costs of invading Iraq and he was 100% correct. I really dont know what happened to him, I can only guess that absolute power corrupts absolutely. In 2002 and 2003 he was dead wrong."

I SAY:

What happened to him? 9-11 happened to him!! And to all of us. And to some of our relatives. Between 1994 and 2002, we witnessed the militant rise of an international movement whose goal is to violently inflict a global caliphate governed by Sharia-enforcing imams on all of us.

They proceeded in the ensuing 8 years to forward this goal by blowing up our co-workers, friends and relatives in barracks, on ships, in offices, embassies, restaurants, churches, buses, subways and airplanes. Most of this was done before the first boot hit the ground over the Kuwaiti border in 2003.

Perhaps in your isolated world you have been unaffected by any of this.

Quick history lesson: Fighting Japan in 1933... maybe not prudent or called for. Fighting Japan in 1941, an idea whose time had come.

Fighting Germany in 1933, probably not a great idea or completely necessary. Fighting Germany in 1941, probably too late.

Amazing what difference 8 years can make, huh?

[girlfriendofasoldier]

ODanny,

Trolliest of Trolls. Why are you not out somewhere hiding under a bridge? I guess having your head in the sand is the same equivalent....nevermind.

Let's analyze, shall we?

YOU SAY:
Unfortunately, that mantra is not rooted in truth. The troops are NOT fighting for my "freedom", and as far as fighting for my "safet", they are fighting for their safety in a civil war they should not be refereeing.

It's only one of many crimes of their civilian leadership, their criminally reckless misuse in Iraq.

......

Actually, you got it backwards. If you support the troops you realize the futility of keeping them in Iraq as IED targets, and to continue the fatally flawed policies of the neocons by spending their blood. Supporting the troops means ENOUGH of the lip service and magnetic ribbons and MUCH MORE speaking out on bringing them home and ending this debacle."

MY RESPONSE:

1) The troops are defending your safety and your freedom. I don't know how to make it any more simpler than by stating the obvious: The terrorists (who ARE in Iraq- not all of them, but A LOT of them), WANT TO KILL US. How hard is that to comprehend? We're taking the bastards out on THEIR soil- instead of ours.
So if the troops are taking out the terrorists who WANT TO KILL US- then THEY ARE PROTECTING YOUR DUMBASS FROM HARM! ... Also- by not allowing the terrorists to overrun our country and take away our freedom, the troops are OBVIOUSLY protecting your freedom- and every other law abiding citizen's as well.

2) The War in Iraq is NOT a civil war! Let's go back to high school civics- THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "CIVIL" WAR! But I know the kind of war you're talking about.. Let's define it for yah! A "civil war" is defined as a war between people of the SAME country, dunce. This has turned into much bigger a thing than a mere CIVIL war. Let me bring you back ODanny- to a time when one of my best friends in the whole wide world was 1/2 A CITY-BLOCK FROM DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you remember 09/11/01? When someone from another country PURPOSELY attacks one of our national landmarks that is OBVIOUSLY a DECLARATION OF WAR.

**PAT ATTENTION: GET YOUR HEAD OUTTA THE SAND OSTRICH ODANNY!**

~*~*PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO POINT #3*~*~
3) I don't know if you have any relatives or friends who are in the military- but they know what they signed up for! They don't need YOU telling them that they shouldn't be there. My boyfriend was EXCITED to go and whoop some of that terrorist ass! I'm proud of him! If I want to buy a little ribbon magnet- or tie a yellow ribbon round a damn oak tree then I can and I will you little scumbag! He's braver than me! He sure as sh*t is BRAVER THAN YOU!

So please- do us all a favor hippie- and go smoke some more of your reefer and rock out at your little gay prideness, and paint your little hippie van in bumper stickers about carbon offsets, and leave the people in the REAL world to fight the REAL wars, k?
Thanks!

[odanny]

"........I SAY:

What happened to him? 9-11 happened to him!! And to all of us. And to some of our relatives. Between 1994 and 2002, we witnessed the militant rise of an international movement whose goal is to violently inflict a global caliphate governed by Sharia-enforcing imams on all of us."...........

What is wrong with that part of your brain that processes the information, relayed hundreds of thousands of times thoughtout the all forms of media (except maybe FOX Noise, the ultimate in misleading and inaccurate information, especially in regards to Iraq) that says IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11, IRAQ UNDER SADDAM HUSSEIN POSED NO THREAT TO THE UNTIED STATES.

So, do you REALY think we are in Iraq because of "terrorism" in the (so-called) "War on Terror"? Suppose Iraq had the third largest reserves of broccoli in the world, would we be mired in a civil war that we started if that were so?

[odanny]

MY RESPONSE:

......."1) The troops are defending your safety and your freedom. I don't know how to make it any more simpler than by stating the obvious: The terrorists (who ARE in Iraq- not all of them, but A LOT of them), WANT TO KILL US. How hard is that to comprehend? We're taking the bastards out on THEIR soil- instead of ours.
So if the troops are taking out the terrorists who WANT TO KILL US- then THEY ARE PROTECTING YOUR DUMBASS FROM HARM!"........

Wrong again. We are creating terrorism. But that is not really the central issue, only a tragic reminder of the invasion that, too, will have to be dealt with. And believe me when I say that Bechtel, Blackwater, Halliburton and others are "taking care" of terrorism while they rob and plunder the U.S. Treasury, creating and/or sustaining said threat. We are are getting raped, collectively, if you pay taxes in the U.S., of which most of that money goes towards funding military misadventures that are currently creating the central issue in Iraq today, a humanitarian crisis second only to Darfur in the world.

Tragic, sad, and loikely criminal in a court of common sense, which has been skewed so far in favor of fear since 9/11 it has allowed this outrage to continue.

[odanny]

Please excuse the typos, its been a long day. And its saddening to read so many misinformed opinions.

I wonder when, or if, some of you will ever start paying attention.

[girlfriendofasoldier]

ODanny --

If you don't like what you see here- troll somewhere else. It's really that simple.

You lack common sense.
My 12 year old, hormones raging, pre-teen brother exhibits more common sense than you on an everyday basis.

If you seriously think that there are no terrorists in Iraq- then I BEHOOVE you to take a 15 month long tour like our brave soldiers are doing. Lets see if YOU make it back alive!

Hell- that'd make some pretty good reality T.V. if you ask me. We can call it Survivor:AL Qaeda!

"Durka!Durka!Durka! Muhammad Jihad! "

[girlfriendofasoldier]

Twolane:
Loved your posts! I too am of Celtic and Irish decent-- and Spartan women are a force to be reckoned with!!!! ;)

O'Danny- more like O'Dandy! (Kinda Gay if you ask me!)

[Deltabravo]

IRAQ UNDER SADDAM HUSSEIN POSED NO THREAT TO THE UNTIED STATES.
~~~~~~~~~~~
If ever there was a Freudian misprint, there it is.

And you have indeed come undone. Nowhere did I say Iraq was responsible for 9-11. I said 9-11 changed everything.

The same way Pearl Harbor changed how we viewed isolationism.

The same way your posts change the way I view universal suffrage.

Dude, argue the facts, not your pre-arranged talking points.

Saddam did pose threats to the United States. Just because you do not agree that he posed those threats, or just because you disagree with the facts other people had about those threats does not mean he did not pose threats.

At the very least, he posed threats to US citizens abroad when he was financing suicide bomb belts at $25K a pop in Israel. Yes, my brother in law and many like him found vast warehouses full of stuff like that inside Iraq.

Do you think they were to be used for domestic purposes only?

Saddam didn't need to waste his explosive undergarments on his own citizens. That's wasteful. He had poison gas for those pesky tribesmen.

Granted, we found no WMD as such by the time the UN resolutions and debate were over and we could actually inspect the premises. Smarter and better-informed people than you, Danny, believe Saddam's WMD are safely in Syria, where his Baathist friends are keeping them safe and sound.

You would have let Saddam sit there and sell them to the highest al-Qaeda bidder after 9-11? You would have risked that kind of tactical victory for al-Qaeda? At whose expense were you willing to trust Saddam, Danny?

Did you think he was trustworthy? (No, don't try it. Don't bring out the photos of Sec. Rumsfeld with him in 1982. Or I'll bring out my collection of Saint FDR and Uncle Joe "Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet" Stalin.

You bore me, Danny. I'm done with you. Saddam would have shut your piehole by feeding you to a woodchipper. We did the world a favor getting rid of him and his sons.

That horrific men now feel free to rush into the void there and blow up children is absolute proof of what a monster Saddam was. That he held al-Qaeda at bay in that country... how much worse was he than the thugs who seek to replace him now that he is gone?

Now go away. And be glad that in the USA attempts to reeducate you are done on message boards and not with drills in dark basements.

[Rich Casebolt]

Deltabravo and girlfriendofasoldier ... thank you.

As for the parrot ...

... odanny wanna cracker?

[Rich Casebolt]

I'd say the only way I think is individually, the opposite of the herd mentality on display here.

As Harry Truman would say, Manure!

Your assertions are a carbon copy of boilerplate Leftism, which we have dealt with ... and trashed, in objective terms ... when others like you squwaked in the past.

Same ol' bullcrap that we've been hearing since the 1960's ... so you are hardly the first, parrot.

You are part of the Leftist flock, waiting to have your feathers plucked and not even realizing it, by those who would turn your trust against you.

Furthermore, I'd stack up my knowledge of history against anyone on this board.

More bullcrap ... for if you really knew history, you would see that it is the cowboy diplomats of America that have facilitated:

> The liberation of MILLIONS from tyranny.
> The REAL reductions in international tensions over the long-term.
> The REAL reductions in nuclear-arms stockpiles.

The application of the Leftism you espouse facilitated NONE of that; it only delayed those positive outcomes ... and its adherents are still trying to do that today.

You are a typical Leftist ...

... for the hallmark of Leftism is the confusion of knowledge with wisdom.

We value wisdom, for without wisdom knowledge can be misapplied (unwittingly or with intent) to wreak destruction upon our civilization.

We value wisdom ...

... and we won't be fooled again.

[Arch]

ALERT THE MEDIA!

I finally found a statement made by odanny with which I agree. I hate broccoli and there is no way I would ever condone a war over broccoli - ever. Beets either! Communists eat beets and boiled potatoes. President Bush, the elder, publicly refused to eat broccoli - a decision I strongly support. I advocate a broccoli free America!

However, the rest of your comments are laughable

Arch

[Rich Casebolt]

Y'know, if broccoli was the lubricant and fuel for modern civilization, it's a pretty safe bet to say that our enemies would be trying to disrupt its distribution ... whether or not for them it was "homegrown".

Important point here, odanny ... if it wasn't the oil, the terrorists would find some other lever to use, to try and push our civilization into Sharia. Take a look at the Phillipines ... no oil there to speak of, but the fanatics are quite active there.

OTOH, Arch, I like broccoli under some conditions ... usually involving the initiation of interaction with cheese in various forms.

I bring this up, only to show that Arch, myself, the various authors here, and others who are pro-victory are individuals ...

... and part of neither herd of sheep ...

... nor flock of parrots, whose squawking for "consensus" without sound principle eventually leads them to acting like feathered lemmings ...

... because they have forgotten what it is like to soar free, in this moment in history when more than the sun is rising in al-Anbar, as it heads towards a new Morning in America ...

... even trying to push us off the cliff with them as they try, and fail, to fly because they have been in a mental cage for so long ...

... except that, unlike them ...

... we won't be fooled again.

[21stCenturyMike]

hope you are all having a good evening.

shorter post this time around as I have little left for this subject; mostly that you are wasting good energy on correcting statements that should simply make you laugh. They are that out in left field.

Next, a correction to the record. By UN standards we not only found WMD's in Iraq, but they were shot at us in the first days of the resumption of fighting. I say resumption of fighting because we still had a treaty in place that the Iraqi government was violating. This was the treaty that was signed after we removed the Iraqi Army from Kuwait, a country that it basically destroyed because they wanted the land. But, that is not really important now as it is meaningless. Unlike the importance that some seem to place on the British and League of Nations. Hell, I guess we should skip all that and just blame Ronny, big shoulders, he can take it.

Sorry, my smart mouth got the best of me.

mike

[odanny]

.........."Next, a correction to the record. By UN standards we not only found WMD's in Iraq, but they were shot at us in the first days of the resumption of fighting. I say resumption of fighting because we still had a treaty in place that the Iraqi government was violating. This was the treaty that was signed after we removed the Iraqi Army from Kuwait, a country that it basically destroyed because they wanted the land. But, that is not really important now as it is meaningless".......

Oh Gee, thanks Mike, this humanitarian crisis and killing zone in Iraq is now LEGAL thanks to your interpretation on international law.

Again, thanks so much for that. That makes it all worthwhile and above board.

Speaking of laughable............

[odanny]

............I bring this up, only to show that Arch, myself, the various authors here, and others who are pro-victory are individuals ...

... and part of neither herd of sheep ...

... nor flock of parrots, whose squawking for "consensus" without sound principle eventually leads them to acting like feathered lemmings ...

... because they have forgotten what it is like to soar free, in this moment in history when more than the sun is rising in al-Anbar, as it heads towards a new Morning in America ...
'

You, like the neocon chickenhawks who started this debacle, are making $$$$ off of others who are fighting and dying for lies.

You're pathetic.

[odanny]

.........."Now go away. And be glad that in the USA attempts to reeducate you are done on message boards and not with drills in dark basements.........."

Yopu mean like in Nazi Germany? How much longer until the federal government becomes something similar to the Third Reich?

All dictatorships have two things: A national enemy and supporters.

Terrorism provides the enemy, some on this forum would provide the support.

[odanny]

Looks like a dream come true, Rich, more WAR!!

Business is good, huh?

"Lies, unprovoked aggression, and delusional expectations – the same ingredients that produced the Iraq catastrophe – all over again. The entire Bush regime and both political parties are complicit, along with the media and US allies.

According to Baer, the Bush regime has given no consideration to whether Iran's response to a US attack might be different than to welcome it as liberation. What if Iran really were to arm the Iraqi resistance and/or to sink our aircraft carriers? How can any government, even one as incompetent, delusional and unaccountable as the Bush regime, initiate war without any thought to the consequences?

The Bush regime's planned war against Iran casts light on the large increase in military armaments that the US is supplying to Israel. With Iraq in chaos and civil war, an attack on Iran leaves as opposition to Israel only Syria and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Israel cannot finish off the Palestinians until Hezbollah is destroyed. An Israeli attack on Syria while the US attacks Iran would leave Hezbollah without supplies in the face of a new Israeli attack."

Get the full story:
http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=11497

[Arch]

Odanny:

You sling around "chickenhawk" a lot and accuse people of profiteering from war. What have you ever done that earns you the right to run your mouth? What inside knowledge do you have about the defense industry? You claim to know more about history than anyone on this blog, yet your comments refute the claim with every post.

Ever been to the Middle East? Iraq? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Lebanon? Ever been subjected to hostile fire? Hit? Ever lived in a real military dictatorship (other than Trollhagen)? Lots of people here can answer in the affirmative. How about you?

People here have made and written more military history than you could ever read. So, Broccoli Boy, let's see your circum vitae.

[Arch]

Rich:

Say it ain't so!

Arch

[Rich Casebolt]

You, like the neocon chickenhawks who started this debacle, are making $$$$ off of others who are fighting and dying for lies ... You're pathetic

Like I said, odanny ... my work saves lives. Provably so.

I make a living at it ... I neither make, nor needlessly facilitate, a killing.

Your parroting here, OTOH, adds to the unprincipled and baseless "dissent" that gives hope to our enemy that they will prevail ... and encourages them to perpetrate "media events" to take even more lives and egg you on.

Therefore, you may be the one indirectly "making a killing" here.

And as for "lies" ... you want the truth ... here it is, as related to another parrot. I don't think you can handle it.

BTW, that parrot cited many of the same sources you use ... and like you, avoided any source with a shred of objectivity.

Refute that truth, point by point ... or be exposed for all to see as the parrot you are ... a foul fowl who can only repeat the Big Lies it hears, because they are compatable with his birdbrain.

You are just another useful idiot, just like the ones I sang this to on the Halliburton front lawn.

Yes we see right through you and your calls for peace
Right through to your core of disdain
For the principles that have made America great
And the freedom you say you proclaim
If you really want peace, then protest the terrorists
who crash planes and slaughter men like lambs ...
Your protests, my friend
Sound much like breaking wind
Your protests sound much like breaking wind

[Rich Casebolt]

As for attacking Iran ... I guess odanny doesn't want to see peace in the MidEast break out, by taking out the primary supporter of terrorism in the region.

Israel cannot finish off the Palestinians until Hezbollah is destroyed.

How do you know the mind of Israel on this ... the same nation who, at her founding, invited the Arabs within her borders to remain and live in peace and prosperity ... only to see them take up arms against her?

This implication smacks of the same anti-Semitism as the blood libel.

An Israeli attack on Syria while the US attacks Iran would leave Hezbollah without supplies in the face of a new Israeli attack.

So, you share the writer's concern about the state of Hezbollah logisitics? Hezbollah is a terrorist organization ... their actions have proven them to be anything but "freedom fighters".

Says a lot about where your head is at ...

[girlfriendofasoldier]

ODanny:

You say "chickenhawk" like it's a bad thing! I'd much rather be the chickenhawk than the chicken!

Bok, Bok, Danny-- Bok, Bok... that's what your words sound like... (like the teacher from Charlie Brown- except you're saying bok,bok,bok,bok,bok instead of wah,wah,wah,wah,wah...). :)

Arch- Trollhagen? HILARIOUS!! :) What in Trollation?!

[Rich Casebolt]

Oh, and let's make something perfectly clear ...

... the firm I work for is a SMALL business, around 200 or so employees total (though its scope of supply to our warfighters, and those of our allies, is greater than its size suggests).

We are no Lockheed Martin, Boeing, or Raytheon, by any means ... but they, with among many others, are our customers. We even sell directly to the DOD.

And that gives the lie to your squwaks like this:

And believe me when I say that Bechtel, Blackwater, Halliburton and others are "taking care" of terrorism while they rob and plunder the U.S. Treasury, creating and/or sustaining said threat.

If the Big Dogs of the defense industry, which would include my customers listed above, have that kind of power, why do they "share the wealth" with the little dogs like my employer, instead of keeping all the value-added in their house to profit from it ...

... or better yet, why do smaller companies like Armor Holdings, Force Protection, and Barrett Arms take business away from the Big Dogs?

Besides, your list has serious flaws ...

Halliburton is only a secondary player in the defense industry with respect to business, through KBR's logistical support that frees more trained Men and Women to fight.

Blackwater is primarily a security company, from what I understand.

Bechtel is a infrastructure-engineering and construction firm, which would find it rather hard to build things in the middle of a sustained war, which is what you say they are trying to sustain.

Their connections to the defense industry are peripheral at most, closer to nonexistent ... but they keep coming up in Leftist propaganda.

Why?

Because they are perceived as symbols of the Main Enemy ... an America who values free enterprise and disdains socialism.

Before the 911 Truthers, there was another basic "truth" that was continually espoused ... the myth of an invincible Corporate America that controlled everything.

You know who gave the lie to that myth, of which the "war profiteer" myth you parrot is a derivative?

Sam Walton
Michael Dell
Steve Jobs
Bill Gates
Herb Kellerher

All of these men came from nowhere, and were highly effective in taking the customers from the established corporations of their day.

And continue to do so today.

Otherwise:

> we'd only be shopping at Sears ...
instead of Wal-Mart, Costco, or many other stores.
> our computers would carry an IBM logo ...
... instead of Dell, or Apple, or one of many others.
> our computers would run only COBOL ...
... not Windows, or Linux, or MacOS.
> American and United would be highly profitable airlines, still protected by government "regulation" ...
... instead of Southwest being the most profitable airline for years and years.

You see, odanny, despite your juevenile squawking, there really is nothing new under the sun.

We've heard it all before, weighed it, and found it wanting.

I welcome principled dissent ... However your parrotting is anything but that; it is the mindless repetition of Big Lies we've heard before ...

... mixed with the strainings of every gnat of adversity faced by our war effort, strainings that you pick up and fling like monkey poo, to see if any of them can stick to the wall as "proof" you are right.

You just repeat and strain ... never refuting those who refute you with fact and reason, but instead keep repeating and straining.

Your droppings foul the floors and walls here ... and add no value to the discussions.

I don't make this suggestion lightly, but I now make this suggestion to the Management:

Cage. This. Parrot.

Even if "fairness" dictates you cage me, too.

[liyak]

If we are losing the war,then
it's lost,at this time!You are
speaking two at one.

[odanny]

........."If the Big Dogs of the defense industry, which would include my customers listed above, have that kind of power, why do they "share the wealth" with the little dogs like my employer, instead of keeping all the value-added in their house to profit from it ...

... or better yet, why do smaller companies like Armor Holdings, Force Protection, and Barrett Arms take business away from the Big Dogs?

Besides, your list has serious flaws ...".......

Your entire argument is flawed. You speak of some kind of economic benefit and it's equitable distribution and then expect me to believe that this fair distribution of wealth is a good thing, as though that argument has merit. And as a result we can ignore that white elephant in the corner that is the Iraq debacle and humanitiarian crisis that brought about this alleged goodwill and fair distribution of profits from the bloody hands of the defense sector.

No matter who much you shriek for war, no matter how much the scum from the AEI and the PNAC and other assorted draft dodging architects of this war try and scare the masses, the foundation of the Iraq war is, and always will be, one of lies, distortions, and fearmongering to commit a nation to sacrifice its military and treasury and national security so the scheming plotters in the White House, and their cronies in the energy and defense industries, could make a killing (no pun intended) from the prosecution of the war in Iraq.

It's not just a war for oil, it's also fulfillment of a bloodlust for empire and geo-political hegemony. For crying out loud, if you have not read the statements from the PNAC website itself, one important one made in 1998, then you are wearing blinders. Why wont the MSM report this, along with the infamous letter to Clinton urging an attack on Iraq (from 1998) and signed by most of the prominent neocons who argued for war in 2002, among them Dick Cheney and Donnie Rumsfeld?

[odanny]

........"I don't make this suggestion lightly, but I now make "his suggestion to the Management:

Cage. This. Parrot."..........

I've exposed you, and your lies. Therfore you must deem me a persistent threat. No wonder you argue for my removal.

[Deltabravo]

Rich, here's an exclusive view of what happens when Parrots who only look out for themselves escape their handlers and think they can run things better over there.

The reality on the ground is too much for some of them. Don't say you didn't see it here first...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqEHQLjh-eI&mode=related&search=

Herewith a new motto for OD: "Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."

Sorry, I was going to ignore him, but when he got his panties into a knot worrying about the Party Of Allah's supply lines, something deep inside me snapped.

Dhimmiwit Danny... the new generation of useful idiots.

[odanny]

......."Sorry, I was going to ignore him, but when he got his panties into a knot worrying about the Party Of Allah's supply lines, something deep inside me snapped." ...........

Oh yea, this is standard fare. Karl Rove and the Smear Machine have instructed ALL neocons and their water carriers to attack any dissenters as either supporters of terrorism, or wanting to "surrender".

It's high school stuff, but it works. It scared a nation into voting for this war, and it scaresthe same politicians into voting its continuation.

It dont bother me, I know who the REAL patriots are, and none of them argue for the continuation of the war in Iraq.

[Arch]

Odanny:

Earlier, I asked you to support some of your counterintuitive charges. "You claim to know more about history than anyone on this blog, yet your comments refute the claim with every post."

1. What inside knowledge do you have about the defense industry?

2. Ever been to the Middle East? Iraq? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Lebanon?

3. Ever been subjected to hostile fire? Hit?

4. Ever lived in a real military dictatorship (other than Trollhagen)?

5. Let's see your circum vitae.

Since Broccoli Boy chose not to answer, I construe your silence as "no" across the board.

No knowledge, no first hand observations, no relevant experience, no combat, no insight into despotism. In summary, you have ZERO qualification to present an argument for or against this or any other war.

All of your "points" are written in the language of a marxist propagandist, which, I believe you are whether you know it or not.

Words like "masses","empire" brand you as just another useful ididot.

[odanny]

Oh, and to prevent any confusion, let me give a few examples of REAL patriots.

REAL patriots are those who actually suited up and were sent to fight and have brought home the first hand accounts of the futility of this war and speak the truth, they are the REAL patriots in America today.

But there are others. Outside of enlisted soldiers, many who refused to engage in the continuation of the war and left the military, and outside of Generals who publicly called for Rumsfeld to step down and are critical of the lies and speak out, outside of junior officers who have spoken out against this war after fighting in it, outside of Beltway politicians, outside of CIA analysts other careerists in Washington who clearly saw the fallacy of the invasion before it was committed and who bravely bucked the tide of fear and the culture of retribution surrounding the neocons in the White House, namely Cheney and Rumsfeld, those are REAL patriots, and to those men and women, you are true warriors. To all who fought there, however, they deserve a nations gratitude, and the medical care that any of this may have caused.

And for those keeping score, dont forget that many victims of this never ending guerilla war will be the U.S. SOLDIERS who need counseling and other forms of treatment later in life and also don't forget, this government will likely deny many of them that.

They've already done it, and it will happen again. Those suffering wont get the care they deserve by a government who cares too little about who it sends to fight its wars anbd the consequences and challenges THEY will face from their desire for war in Iraq.

[odanny]

........."No knowledge, no first hand observations, no relevant experience, no combat, no insight into despotism. In summary, you have ZERO qualification to present an argument for or against this or any other war."..........

So, if one was not actually i battle, in Iraq, they cannot argue the consequences of this foreign policy debacle?

So, that means only those who fought in it can argue for, or against it?

So, you listen to Bush and Cheney and Kristol and all the neocons who dodged service in Vietnam yet drew up this war? Isn't that a little ironic?

I never served in Iraq. I did serve in the Army. You can attack me, you can attack my service, and you can try your hardest to disqualify my "credibility" but you cannot disqualify my arguments against the war. Thats the central issue that I know, and you seemingly do not recognize.

So, if I'm that easy to refute, get busy.

[Rich Casebolt]

the foundation of the Iraq war is, and always will be, one of lies, distortions, and fearmongering to commit a nation to sacrifice its military and treasury and national security so the scheming plotters in the White House, and their cronies in the energy and defense industries, could make a killing (no pun intended) from the prosecution of the war in Iraq.

NO, I didn't speak of some "economic benefit".

I am taking apart your argument, that this war is a derivative of greed, parrot. Let me make it simple for you.

If the DOD is turning to these smaller firms, over established corporations whom they have worked with for YEARS, to supply their needs because the little guys win on technical merit, then your assertions of a conspiracy between defense contractors and the government FALL APART! If the contractors are so greedy, why would they let this business slip from them?

Yet, you fail to deal with my central premise ... instead, you continue to parrot LIES in the face of truth.

Like those regarding PNAC ... one can only reach your conlusions about their motives from what was written by them, only if one starts with a bias against those who wrote those words

Let me tell you my summary of PNAC:

Nations who adopt the principles of rights-respecting, representative governance with free-enterprise economics, as America has, do not pose a threat to America.

They instead foster prosperity and peace worldwide ... therefore, their establishment and maintenance should be encouraged.

And, in the wake of the Cold War and the fall of Soviet communism, America has an unprecedented opportunity to encourage that ... not making nations our colonies, but persuading them rise up to be our moral and economic equals ...

... reserving the use of military force only for those whose nations are so dysfunctional, it is evident they have become a threat to the rest of civilization through their brutality, inside and outside their borders.

I know, in response, you will trot out all the old canards and conspiracy theories that "prove" a strong America is the greatest threat to world peace ... and how a brutal dictator with absolute control of a technically-modern nation and a history of using WMD was far less of a threat to us than a few dozen guys who trained among goatherders and just happened to perpetrate 911.

Your rants are the same old stuff I have been hearing since my childhood ... stuff that has already been debunked, here and on other New Media sites by others.

You are too easy to refute ... you just are too thick headed in your "enlightened" state to know when you are refuted.

Let me spell it out for you, here:

http://casebolt.blogspot.com/2006/09/reposting-truth-about-iraq.html

That is the same link I embedded in a reply to you above. You totally ignore what is written there. That proves you are a parrot.

You didn't expose me ... I've been exposed on these pages for years.

I expose you.

I expose -- as I and others have done many times with your ilk -- your willful ignorance of our "dissent" from your party line/birdbrained fantasy ... and how, instead of engaging in reasoned discource and justification of your position, you repeat the same old DISCREDITED LIES even in the face of evidence and reasoned analysis that disprove them.

That is why you need to be "caged" here, by the Management.

You don't add anything to the discussion ... you just crap all over the place, parrot.

Unless you are ready for that cage, it is YOU who need s to get busy with the refutations of our statements here ... point by point, with logical justifications.

Are you up for that, parrot?

[Arch]

Odanny:

You were not a combat arms guy, right? Well that's a start. You should read my questions before you get all worked up.

Here's how I would answer those questions:

Knowledge of defense industry? Executive in aerospace & defense - 20 years. I've briefed many staffers on the hill and in the building. Ran a $20M product line for 11 years.

Middle East experience? Israel, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon - Yes. Iraq - no.

Combat Experience. F4E weapon systems officer at DaNang AB, Vietnam and Udorn RTAB, Thailand. US Military Political Affairs officer in a Central American country in civil war - El Salvador 1981. Hostile fire - many, many times. Only hit once. Retired after 20 years active duty.

Dictatorships - South Vietnam, Philippines, Iran under martial law. Junta in El Salvador.

Whose opinions and judgments would you value most?

[Rich Casebolt]

REAL patriots are those who actually suited up and were sent to fight and have brought home the first hand accounts of the futility of this war and speak the truth, they are the REAL patriots in America today.

But there are others. Outside of enlisted soldiers, many who refused to engage in the continuation of the war and left the military, and outside of Generals who publicly called for Rumsfeld to step down and are critical of the lies and speak out, outside of junior officers who have spoken out against this war after fighting in it ...

.

Then why do so many of our Men and Women in Iraq, with a better knowledge of the facts than you and I, keep signing back up to stay there ... or once home, go back?

More proof that you are lying ... and here's some more:

http://truthlaidbear.com/communitypage.php?community=milblogs

Check out the Members List at the link above, odanny.

Many of those on that list either served in, or are still serving in, Iraq ... including household names to the commenters here like ...

Greyhawk (currently on his second tour in Iraq)
Chuck Zeigenfuss (seriously wounded in Iraq)
Dadmanly (served in Iraq)
SMASH (served in Kuwait at the very start of OIF, dodging Saddam's SCUDs on occasion, while providing Naval port security).

Also suiting up were B5 authors Wolf and Major Pain, with Pinch Paisley still in the reserves and therefore subject to callup for Sandbox duty.

Very, very few of those above call this war "futile" ... most sound a lot like me when it comes to the war.

And in fact, when rubber hits pavement, the anti-war veterans' movement is exposed as a hollow shell ...

http://www.indepundit.com/archive2/2007/03/part_iii_infilt.html#

Here's a report from the 17 March 2007 event described in the above link, made by OIF veteran SMASH, who worked his way in beside your "real patriots", odanny emphasis added...

Finally, we reach the area where the Iraq Veterans Against the War are assembling in order to "lead" the march. The only problem is that a couple hundred people have already moved out in front of our designated vanguard. Another neon-green clad marshall is attempting to create a clearing, so that we can form a new "front," even if it's not the actual leading edge of the march.

I watch this woman, as she tries to orchestrate the start of the march, and can't help thinking that this all looks strangely familiar. I'm reminded of the time that Mrs. Smash was doing a show at a community theater, and they asked me to fill in as stage manager for the weekend. The job consists of wrangling actors, and arranging props. This woman is clearly the stage manager for this march, and she is arranging the veterans. "Iraq vets to the front! Vietnam vets, fall in behind them!" She shouts. "We need drummers, get some drummers up here!"

It's clear what my role is meant to be in this protest. I'm a prop.

On cue, the media is filling into the gap in front of us. They snap photos from a low angle, so it looks like there's a solid wall of veterans marching on the Pentagon.

But it's all an illusion. There are really only a dozen or so people who could pass for Iraq veterans in this march -- just enough to fill a single row, standing shoulder to shoulder across two traffic lanes -- and judging from the way they wear their "uniforms," walk, and comport themselves, I'm doubtful that some of them ever served a day in the military. Many of the women appear to be wives or girlfriends tagging along for the march, wearing their partners' jackets.

The only piece of military gear that I'm wearing is a desert boonie hat. A few people ask my name, and where I'm from, but nobody digs any deeper than that. I could have bought this hat online, and they would be none the wiser. There isn't the slightest bit of curiousity about my branch of service, or whether I've actually been to Iraq or even the Middle East.

For all they know, I could be another Jesse MacBeth. Or worse, an infiltrator.

I would also include in my list of reliable sources, genuine journalists like Michael Yon and Bill Roggio, who are willing to leave the Green Zone and go where the fighting is, instead of leaving the dangerous stuff ... and their credibility ... to stringers.

Their accounts do not jibe with yours, parrot.

Thus endeth the lesson in how to justify one's position, and/or shred the opposition in a credible manner.

You bring a few political Generals and the conventional wisdom of the 20th Century -- the conventional wisdom that let this mess fester and made this war necessary, longer and harder -- to the debate.

I bring the bulk of the US Armed Forces (including many many more generals than yours), and common sense.

Patriots know when, to protect life and liberty, the rules have to change.

Parrots keep repeating what they have heard before ... even when it gets people killed.

odanny wanna cracker?

[Arch]

We are winning the unwinable war and that terrifies the left for two reasons.

First, the American people understand that the MSM are unreliable and biased against our success. They no longer believe the media. Look at the shrinking subscription rates for the NYTimes, LATimes and WaPo. ABC, CBS and NBC are losing market share and bleeding ad revenue, the lifeblood of news.

Second, they fear that they may have a winnable conflict passed to them should they win the presidency. The transformation of Iraq from a despotic dictatorship to a democracy will take a decade or more. Americans want this effort to proceed if possible. Bush should not and will not cut and run. In January '09, whoever wins the Whitehouse will be expected to win.

Mistakes have been made in Iraq as they have been in every war. Sacrifices are made. Young men die. If we can win, and I think we can, it must be so.

[rgrmom82]

lay off the Parrot bashing..you are hurting my brilliant babies feelings.

Danny Boy is a great song. One of the first I learned.

Just a little tidbit about broccoli...

What is the difference between broccoli and boooo-gers?

(Well, their kinda the same in that one's a stalker and one's a shocker, one gets ya de blow de arse, one gets da to blow de nose, both are nasty and green but one sticks to a wall so hard it takes BATF and a SWAT team to scrape it off, they both look the same at the end of a BASE.BAll.BAT., Plus, you couldn't force feed either of them to me with a tube)...but

the difference is that KIDS won't eat BROCOLLI!

[Rich Casebolt]

No offense intended to your babies, rgrmom ... since they have lived in your midst, your parrots are obviously of superior intellect to the bash-ee above.

"Parrot" is just easier to say than, for instance "manure spreader" ... which would also apply to said bash-ee.

Just remember to tell your kids ...

... you can pick your friends ...

... you can pick your nose ...

... but picking your friend's nose is never recommended.

Of course, some would tell you "that snot true!"

I'll stop now, before I booger up this thread any more.

[liyak]

The info being used is death!
And it only reduces the terrorists,physically!Therefore we need to know,what
will actually change their ways,etc.If only death is administered,then it isn't true victory,for they are "Hordes."I.E.,Locusts!It's
feeding from:"The Abussos."