Pat Tillman shot in the head

Posted By Uncle Jimbo

I didn't want to add any fuel to this, but ignoring it would not be proper. I also question the description of the bullet holes. AP

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

"The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors - whose names were blacked out - said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

I have been in close proximity to two friendly fire incidents in which luckily no one was killed. In this instance two things immediately come to mind. One is why the fact that three rounds hit him in the forehead has never been mentioned before. Given the number of leaks about other things and the amount of scrutiny given to this situation I find it astonishing that this was never mentioned. Especially by his family once they began fighting the military about the circumstances of his death. Did they not know that he took three rounds to the forehead? Did they not see his body or read an autopsy report, and if so why have they not used that fact to question the fact that his death was accidental friendly fire?

Which leads directly to my second point. It is highly unlikely that someone could take three rounds to the head accidentally. The head and in this case apparently just the forehead is an extremely small and moving target. If another member of his unit had accidentally fired in his direction on three round burst, one maybe but not likely two rounds could hit a head-sized target. But three is not going to happen just due to muzzle jump. If they fired semi-automatic it is not plausible that three rounds hit him in the forehead in one burst as the first would have caused his entire body to drop at least somewhat.

This assumes that the person firing was not directly in front of Tillman at close range. I am having difficulty imagining a scenario where he could take three accidental rounds to the forehead. Were the rounds all from the same weapon? Have they identified the shooter(s)? Where was he in relation to Tillman?

Since the Army did an investigation and I assume knows the answers to these questions, they were satisfied that this was an accident. Absent that understanding, I'm having a tough time reaching that same conclusion. I do not believe that this means his death was not an accident, but it raises serious questions about where the shooter was in relation to Tillman.

I talked Pat Tillman & Jessica Lynch on CNN a while back as well, the end of that segment is when I knocked the host out when he asked about enemy propaganda and I reminded him CNN ran jihadi sniper propaganda.

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Comments

[JimBimbo]

Forget about Tillman. There are bigger fish to fry, like Pvt. Beauchamp. Fry the little liar!

[mattb79]

You have to remember that Pat Tillman was a MOONBAT and planned to meet with, of all people, Noam Chomsky, after returning from his hitch. He made his thoughts about the Iraq war obvious to everyone in his unit. "Illegal" was the words used to describe his opinion of OIF. He will not be missed.

[JimBimbo]

Agreed. Accidents should happen to all of the MOONBATS. Jessica Lynch was a MOONBAT too.

[Colin]

Mattb79

He might have been antiwar. He might have been a Chomsky fan. He might have thought the war was "illegal", but that is not even close to an excuse for murder. If the allegation here is true, if one of his fellow soldiers did shoot him, and it wasn't a friendly fire incident, well, let's just say that it's not conducive to good order and discipline for soldiers to go around shooting one another, no matter how distasteful one's views on war may be. I don't know what happened there, but if Uncle Jimbo's observation is correct, it helps no one to try and rationalize a murder.

[Synova]

mattb79, you're out of line. JimBimbo is obviously a troll. I figure you are too. The behavior fits.

[Synova]

I had thought they decided it was an on-purpose accident. Or maybe that's just my default understanding of friendly fire... a mistaken target shot on purpose rather than an accidental discharge.

Or maybe the "three rounds" is in error. It might not make sense for an accident, but it doesn't really make sense for on-purpose either, does it? Is there any scenario where it would make sense, even if the guy was severely hated or "had to go", to *not* try to make it look like an accident? That's not plausible either.

Maybe the three rounds were not from a single three-round burst but from more than one weapon firing at a mistaken target.

Also, if he was wearing armor, (and what chance that he wasn't), how many rounds hit him that *didn't* kill him.

It's easy to read that quoted bit and visualize only three rounds and tightly grouped.

[htom]

I can see, maybe, how it happens. Very fluky but then in combat even the very, very fluky happens. Tillman looks around (not over) his shoulder, putting his forehead vertical, and stands as the burst fires from a weapon that's rotating downwards. I'd think he'd have to be closer than ten meters, though.

[exhelodrvr]

From what I remember of the sotry, he was speaking for a couple of minutes after being shot. Is that correct? That doesn't seem very likely after taking three rounds in the forehead from an M-16.

[JimBimbo]

Synova, I am not a "troll." I am being sarcastic. Do you know what6 sarcasm is?

[Mr.Sparkle]

Did the army do an investigation Jimbo? The story mentioned the Army medical examiners were put on ice, and the Pentagon had their own little investigation (I don't know whether the Tillmans would have rather directed that duty to the Taliban than to the Pentagon).

His outspoken viewpoint definitely make this news very serious.

[warvet48]

"mattb79, you're out of line. JimBimbo is obviously a troll. I figure you are too. The behavior fits."

I think you're right Synova.

As far as Pat Tillman is concerned. This investigation is ongoing, and for the most part only because his parents raised enough Hell to get it going. The WH supposedly is holding documentation relative to the case.??

I would have to wonder too about wether or not there really were 3 shots to the forehead.

It would take a near miracle to pull that off, but it could be done.

Just like we complain about Thomas. We should be complaining about this one too. The truth needs to be uncovered and whatever repercussions come from that. Let them fall where they may.

Regardless of Tillman's opinions; what he did by giving up a rewarding career and joining the military as he did. Well, he had the guts to do it, and he should be honored, just as any other of our war dead. Part of that honor is to bring the truth out!

[MICHAEL in MI]

Regarding Pat Tillman being a "the war is illegal" moonbat, I don't recall reading that anywhere. Does anyone have a link to the source for that?

[bthun]

"Absent that understanding, I'm having a tough time reaching that same conclusion. I do not believe that this means his death was not an accident, but it raises serious questions about where the shooter was in relation to Tillman.

Or shooters were...

As Colin said, this is not and should not be a case of Tillman's politics. Knowing nothing more than we do at this time, we have to trust that the truth will be revealed and if a crime was committed, those involved will be brought to justice.

What amazes me is, if I remember and understand the original story correctly, the attempted subterfuge concerning the incident in the first place.

If for no other reason than Tillman's fame, those involved in the investigation should have known that this incident would be placed under a microscope and the circumstances would be leaked by those at the scene.

You would think that the brass involved would realize that an attempt to cover up is always worse than just going with the truth. Disturbing is indeed the word.

[bthun]

Regardless of Tillman's opinions; what he did by giving up a rewarding career and joining the military as he did. Well, he had the guts to do it, and he should be honored, just as any other of our war dead. Part of that honor is to bring the truth out!

...or what warvet48 said.

[billo]

I have not seen the autopsy report on this case, but I can I was in that office for many years. At no time during my tenure was there ever any political pressure to come to a directed conclusion. There were some serious disagreements between staff members regarding specific cases, but that's pretty common among forensic pathologists. I don't know what the MEs said, but I can tell you that it is *very* unlikely that it reflects any outside pressure.

[billo]

One more thing. One thing that I have consistently noted is that news reports of what we said and what we really said were often radically out of sync. Just because a news report spins something one way doesn't mean that's what the ME actually meant. This is particularly true with limited quotes.

[douglas]

That's on the money, Billo.
If AP has documents, why don't they release them (redacted if necessary) and let us all see the info? When is the MSM going to learn that their edit isn't enough any more, we want original sources when possible.
As for the article repeatedly pointing out that investigators asked men in the unit if Tillman was disliked, had enemies, etc- Well, OF COURSE they asked that. They'd be just a little negligent if they didn't ask that EVERY time someone gets shot, no? The asking of the question does not necessarily make it a prime suspicion in the investigation.

What we need here is more info and less news reports.

[Synova]

"Do you know what6 sarcasm is?"

Something people do to be obnoxious on purpose?

Do you know what a troll is?

[Synova]

Michael, I seem to recall hearing that Tillman wasn't so enthused about the Iraq invasion. I'm certain that anything I *did* hear was at the very best second hand.

[Digger]

When I first read the report my first thought was, oh sh*t that has to be deliberate. With 24hrs to process, I'm not so sure. I have and many others I know could make that shot and it would be instinctive when made. It only takes the training to do it. You can at that distance put 2,3,4 rounds on auto, at that distance in a 3 1/2 x 3 1/2. I will say that, the shooter was most likely in the standing position, that is where you have the most control to shoot a burst like that. These guys have far more advanced marksmanship training over the regular 11 series soldier. Many make shooting a hobby and stay in practice in the sport of shooting. I really was kinda crushed by the impact of hearing the shot location and group size. Seems the only thing that could set it straight for me would be, what was the standard uniform for the operation, light conditions, and where was his buddy at the time of the shooting.

[crosspatch]

The grouping of a three round burst can vary greatly. It depends on how the shooter is positioned. If the weapon is supported with a bipod or rested on a rock or other support, it is possible to greatly reduce the amount of muzzle jump. A weapon such as an M16A2 or M4 have a "three round burst" selection so you get three rounds from a single pull of the trigger and dont have to worry about letting off after three rounds like you did with the old M16A1.

I think it would be quite possible to get a tight three round pattern depending on how the shooter is configured when the trigger is pulled.

[wingnutx]

The Army Ranger who was alongside Pat Tillman when he was shot in Afghanistan told ESPN.com Friday that he remains convinced that the former NFL player was accidentally killed by friendly fire, rather than a target of a malicious act.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2951521

[Cincinnati_Bob]

Yea, if anyone is willing to shoot someone for their opinion, then those people belong in Germany, 1941, or Russia during Stalin's lifespan, or today in parts of the Middle East.

Then you too can be shot for your opinion and we'll call it good and get back to the courageous business of freedom and the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness without your hypocritical ignorant bag of flesh.

But they were probably trolls.

And if not and you're making jokes about it, think how you'd like to read that crap being Pat's parents, or one of his friends. They might just stop by here since B5 has been the best milblog on the net since it started and always treat the military with the utmost of respect.
I doubt his family and friends have closed the book.

Anyway, personally, the incident doesn't sound accidental to me either and if not, I hope the murderers end up serving in jail.

[Digger]

Hey crosspatch I don't totally disagree with you, and also don't want to get this post too long. In a supported position, bipod, or rock actually gives you less control in the specific senerio. Usually it also means you have time to ID the target. A rested rifle has to be physically returned to the aim point unless imbedded, a free fired weapon, with the minor recoil a 5.56 has, your body becomes a part of that recoil system and can sustain on target accuracy for the initial burst, then repositioned. Any rested position would go from pinpoint too area.(unless imbedded)

[Wink]

holy freaking batman and spiderman people! regardless of his political opinions.. the man was a SOLDIER, in he Army of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.. PERIOD.. Good Gosh Darn this thread has pissed me off! Making jokes about his death is akin to cracking cancer jokes at a Hospice facility. It is crass, and completely uncalled for, even if intended as sarcasm. He was Special Forces, so he did SOMETHING right, they dont exactlly GIVE AWAY SF appointments.

as far as 3 forehead shots go.. I would really like more info on that one, for those that have seen a headshot from a SS109 round.. it does a pretty bad job on thin bone material. If he took 3 in the forehead.. how would you know? Not trying to be morbid, but a single round 1:9 twist from that catridge would pretty much make 2 other shots mere inches away from the first, ..uh.. hard to notice. they dont tend to make nice neat holes in bones..

just saying..

[Arch]

Okay, let's get the unvarnished truth. If it was friendly fire, let's get the unvarnished truth. If It was murder, let's get the unvarnished truth. if it was something else, let's get the unvarnished truth. If the DOD lied, who did it at whose direction and why?

I do not know Pat Tillman, his parents or his politics and all of them are irrelevant absent the facts.

What is the truth? Was Pat Tillman killed by the Taliban, friendlies or whatever. Present facts, not rumors.

[Rich Casebolt]

Methinks that somebody is confusing -- or trying to confuse in the minds of others -- Pat Tillman with his brother, who started taking a hard and public antiwar line after Pat's death. If that confusion is being intentionally perpetrated, that is every bit as low as what I see going on over at TNR.

As for JimBimbo -- given his comments about lying and torture in one of the other threads, I wonder if perhaps Lord HaWW HaWW has once again wormed his way in here.

As for how to deal with the situation under discussion ... what Arch said.

[LongTabSigO]

Here's the reason I'm a tad dubious of the whole "anti-war" thing...Anyone who's spent more than 10 minutes in either Ranger training or a Ranger unit knows you have to be rather committed to stick with it. If you're a "Noam Chomsky" acolyte, you ain't going to join the Rangers just to have anti-war credibility. The bar is set pretty low these days. You can do that by being in any combat unit(and a lot of messkit repair units).

This thing has gotten so bloody out of hand that at this point I wish everyone who has info would just get it out and we'll be done with it. It's getting ridiculous. A lot of people acted stupidly because too many folks in leadership positions are worried more about spin than doing the right thing. But let's also be real here - if we were talking about CPL Rodriquez from Pocatello, Idaho, none of this buffoonery would probably be going on. There'd be no need to massage the situation; no need to over compensate the valor; no need to make a bunch of athletes and sports personalities have a symbolic viking send-off for "one of their own".

As far as Mama Tillman - she's starting to wear out her sympathy card. The Army is going to get this right. When it's all done, appropriate action will be taken. It's going to have to be good enough. There's a war on - we have more important things to do.

[JimBimbo]

I seem to recall hearing that Tillman wasn't so enthused about the Iraq invasion. I'm certain that anything I *did* hear was at the very best second hand.

You can't trust anything you didn't hear first hand. Therefore, nothing about the Tillman case can be trusted. Only the people who were there know what happened. We cannot trust our ears if they happen to say anything, because we weren't there and if we weren't there then we can't trust ourselves. Damn those history books. Who needs 'em?

Synova, that's "sracasm." Damn that sarcasm. Can't trust that, either.

As far as Mama Tillman - she's starting to wear out her sympathy card. The Army is going to get this right. When it's all done, appropriate action will be taken. It's going to have to be good enough. There's a war on - we have more important things to do.

I agree. The damn woman ought to quit her damn whining. The boy's dead, and he was a MOOTBAT. Probably shot himself in the head three times just to make George Bush look bad. Damn MOOTBAT traitor. No wonder we're not losing the Iraq War.

[Cincinnati_Bob]

There's a war on - we have more important things to do.

What is it with people who think the USA can't walk and chew gum at the same time?
I don't think there's anything more important than getting the truth out on the death of a serving member of the USA in country.

Someone knows the story. The story was originally scuttled, which means there is something to find out. I have family in country. I'd want to know the truth, I don't mind supporting same for These folks.

[Ymarsakar]

Since the Army did an investigation and I assume knows the answers to these questions, they were satisfied that this was an accident.

If everybody shut up about this, how far would Army investigators go? I do remember in the past folks talking about some "coverup". This sounds more and more like an onion effect. The real coverup is behind the outside and more obvious coverup.

Regarding Pat Tillman being a "the war is illegal" moonbat, I don't recall reading that anywhere. Does anyone have a link to the source for that?

I know his brother is like that, but last time I checked Pat disagreed with his brother over Afghanistan and other political considerations.

People really should stop believing propaganda on the fly, at least not without some additional background information.

You would think that the brass involved would realize that an attempt to cover up is always worse than just going with the truth. Disturbing is indeed the word.

Unless they thought that the thing they were covering up was so horrible that it was worth the risks of media microscopes.
Just some possibilities.

If there is a deeper and more horrible truth, then someone else may just be manipulating the family into blaming the military, in order to divert attention from the FF incident in question. A sort of onion layer. The outer coverup was over the friendly fire or some such. The inner coverup might be over something a lot more horrible. Or maybe people want vengeance and someone or someones are taking advantage of that in order to prosecute the military like other incidents.

It is useful, though, to repeat "don't ever trust the AP". They are far more adept at deception and trickery than anyone in the military.

The doctors - whose names were blacked out - said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

Remember the old Anonymous Sources tactic of the AP. Be wary.

The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

One of these days, someone is going to have to tell the government that if you release some documents or whatever to the press, you need to instantaneously release them for the entire public to see on a website in order to steal a march on the press if they had a story in mind.

The news can make up anything if the government gives them the tools to do it.

The reason why it is hard to find out is because everyone has an agenda and thus their bias is distorting the facts into weird things. The DoD, the Army lawyers, forensic doctors, reporters, the family, Pat's brother, etc. It is always hard to find the truth through one layer of narrative, let alone a manifold bunch of them.

In these little games of deception, there are knives waiting to poke holes in people, in every dark nook.

[Digger]

Pat joined the service. He was trained, assigned, and deployed. I really don't see it possible, that he didn't know where he was going. An upright thought process would have told anyone that. Soldiers do what we do for many different reasons, we generally don't make assumptions why unless given presented reason. I was not and as far as I have read, none of you were assigned with Pat. Don't assume anything about any man who knowingly is about to volunteer for combat duty. Those issues are filtered out in the end. He will not return, he should not be treated with anymore or any less respect than his fellow soldiers. He was a soldier, he died in combat. Accidents do happen!!!

[MICHAEL in MI]

I don't know if any of you saw it, but those amazing private investigators the Kos Kidz have figured out why Pat Tillman was murdered: He Was Murdered Because He Planned to Meet Noam Chomsky!

So it looks like it is the Left that is perpetrating the "Pat Tillman was a moonbat who thought the war was illegal" meme.

But, hey, remember, they "support the troops".

[SoldierNoLongerInIraq]

UJ, anyone can FOIA documents. Send a FAX to DoD requesting the same documents AP received. They probably already have them xeroxed.

Then put them online so that all the vets who read Blackfive can read them. The AP reporters probably don't know the difference between a M16A2 and the M249 SAW.

Maybe you can crack the code in an original way that uses the best parts of the web, in this case your readers, many of whom are OIF/OEF vets.

[Digger]

I don't know about how some of your thought processes work, but I do know that the vast majority, say 99.00% of those who endured any 11 series life, and beyond, didn't do it to undermine anything. The V's don't go there to make a headline. If that is anyones initial goal, then I'm sorry, you have too go. I think someone at RTB or Bn level would have picked up on this. I'm not convinced.

[JE]

I have just read a very indepth account entitled An Unamerican Tragedy by Mike Fish at: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=tillmanpart1

If it had been just Pat Tillman who died that night, murder might be a consideration. However, there were two other Rangers wounded and an Afghan Army soldier killed in addition to Tillman. That does not sound like a murder, it sounds like a tragic friendly fire incident!!

As far as the 3 rounds are concerned, it has been stated above by people who might know that it is possible under the circumstances. Along with the other death/wounded it is a logical finding that it was a tragic accident which because of the person involved made for a desire to put as low a profile as possible on the death. This was unwise but I can understand the desire.

As to Tillman's views - he gave up much to join the army after 9/11 and he was in the Afghan-Pakistan border area. Seems a logical assumption on this too: he was a man moved by the horror on our shores and wanted to make a difference - end of story. Slander is a worse death than what happened in Afghanistan and to color negatively with too much input motivations that seem honorable and well intended, would be an additional and unwarranted tragedy. Lets keep our eyes on the true facts of a courageous man who died for his beliefs. What he felt about Iraq is not important to the story because he died in a country he joined the army specfically to free.

[MICHAEL in MI]

JE - As I posted above with the link, the meme about Pat Tillman supposedly being a moonbat who felt the war was illegal seems to have been put out by the Left. Either someone is doing it deliberately or someone has confused Pat Tillman with his moonbat brother. I have never read, until today, of Pat Tillman's thoughts on the war effort. I have only read statements from him of his desire to serve his country after 9/11.

"mattb79" was the first to bring that lie to the attention of this blog, so I am guessing the Left is sending out their trolls to infest milblogs to spread this lie.

[Digger]

Hey JE,
I'm with that, he was after all only a man, he made the choice, and all deserve honor. Let them rest in peace.

[MD in Philly]

I heard the claim that Tillman was against the war "soon" after his death. It was part of the overall view that he was murdered to prevent him from criticizing the war effort publicly, hence "undoing" the show of patriotism around his joining up. I am not in any way agreeing to that version, I'm just repeating what I know has been "out there" a long time.

My experience with military assault rifles is minimal and with older models. I would have guessed that between the damage they do and the difficulty in maintaining aim with multiple rounds, 3 shots to the forehead sounds iffy from anyway you look at it. But if the newer versions have an automatic 3 shot burst and less recoil I can understand better a well grouped burst of 3, and I guess depending on the type of "bullet" there may be more of a discrete entry hole or not.

I agree with full disclosure, open examination of the info, and not trusting "AP" as synonomous with the imprimater of truth.

[JihadGene]

From JimbimBLOW-
"Synova, I am not a "troll." I am being sarcastic. Do you know what6 sarcasm is?"

JihadGene says-
Here's your answer JimBimBLOW...you are a Tango- Romeo-Oscar-Lima-Lima, a fu*kin TROLL. *Note this is without being a sarcastic6 or sicko-luvin ass*.
If you enter a 12 step program it's step #1 you seem to be hung-up on...troll-wise.
Luv yoo loong time.

From Arch-The Big Money Question...
"What is the truth? Was Pat Tillman killed by the Taliban, friendlies or whatever. Present facts, not rumors".

JihadGene says-
Exactly ARCH!!! Wait and see! There are too many "Truthers" & "Serious" Art Bell fans (though I enjoy Coast to Coast, too) lurking about...within the blog-o-sphere void...looking for black helicopters and Shadow People. Perhaps,
TROLL JimBimBLOW can help O.J. Simpson find "the real killazz"!

P.S. Sorry if I step on any trolls toes here....oh bullshit!

[MD in Philly]

The story linked by JE seems to have a good amount of credible info, along with verbal accounts of some who were there. Apparently it was the first combat encounter for many of the troops. I wonder if there is any info on how often "friendly fire" incidents involve inexperienced troops.
The article speaks of how the soldiers "differed in their accounts" in the debriefing afterward. I guess I would expect people to not remember it all the same. I can understand that his brother was devastated by it.

[Synova]

I'd be surprised if accounts didn't differ.

How often do friendly fire incidents occur when there isn't any confusion?

[Steven Andrew Miller]

September 25 San Francisco Chronicle story reporting that former NFL star and Army Ranger war hero Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan last year, believed the US war on Iraq was "f***ing illegal" and counted Noam Chomsky among his favorite authors.

Mary Tillman says a private meeting was planned between him and Pat after Pat's return--a meeting that never took place, of course. Chomsky confirms this scenario

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/zirin

Tillman was a hardcore Lefty.

[Steven Andrew Miller]

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman#Political_views

[RT]

[sarcasm]

wikipedia? well, now we *KNOW* it has to be true!

[/sarcasm]

[Mr.Sparkle]

To be fair it's a summary of the links he provided.

As it was specifically the war on Iraq he rejected, I wonder what he would have thought if he knew it was all a mistake?

[Beth]

Oh yeah, well when are you gonna talk about Tillman and Jessica Lynch, chickenhawk?!

/idiotarian moonbat

"Tillman was a hardcore Lefty."

No offense, but so f'n what?

[Mr.Sparkle]

On April 23, all top Ranger commanders were told of the suspected fratricide. That same day, an Army press release said he was killed “when his patrol vehicle came under attack.”

On April 29, four days before Tillman’s memorial, Gen. John Abizaid, chief of U.S. Central Command, and other top commanders were told of the fratricide. It is not known if Abizaid reported the news to Washington. Mary Tillman believes that with her son’s high profile, and the fact that Rumsfeld sent him a personal letter, the word quickly reached the defense secretary. “If Pat was on Rumsfeld’s radar, it’s pretty likely that he would have been informed right away after he was killed,” she said. White House, Pentagon and Army spokesmen all said they had no information on when Bush or Rumsfeld were informed.

On April 30, the Army awarded Tillman a Silver Star medal for bravery, saying that “through the firing Tillman’s voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground.”

What's that about believing the Army Ymarsakar? Apparently they just make the citations up!

"He charged the enemy bellowing the ancient Gaelic war cry... disarming 30 taliban with his left foot he proceeded to administer first aid to wounded children with his right..."

[Synova]

I have a citation and they made it up.

For what it's worth, Mr. Sparkle.

I mean they seriously made it up. I doubt the person who wrote it ever met me.

It wasn't anything impressive or important, about as unimpressive as possible and still count as a medal, but I do have to admit that it was an interesting bit of creative writing.

That said (repeatedly) I don't think that devalues the award.

As for Tillman... not having read much, just that one link today, it seems that he *was* rallying the fellow next to him and reacting appropriately and displaying leadership.

The stupidity of the notion to try to keep the fact of the friendly fire out of the public eye really has no excuse. Even so, the fictional aspects of the citation don't necessarily devalue it.

[douglas]

Well, he may have been an avid reader of Noam Chomsky, but he was also apparently a big fan of John McCain, so I don't think his political views are going to be an easy thing to sort out. It seems he was rather idiosyncratic politically. If I had to label him, from what I gather, he'd be more like a far right, isolationist type, where you often get overlap with the left. Would also explain why he felt Afghanistan was right, but Iraq wrong. Ultimately, it really doesn't matter.

An interesting tidbit in the SF Chronicle link left earlier-
That article was from 25 September 2005. IN it you'll see the line:
"...having been hit by three bullets in the forehead, killing him."
So this was apparently not news. The only news in the new AP story appears to be that an ME reccommended further investigation. The rest is rehash.

[douglas]

Better stated: I don't really care what Pat Tillman thought, I care what he did. And it seems everything he did was honorable. He maintains my respect, if not for his ideology, then for his actions.

[Rich Casebolt]

Thanks for the links, Mr. Miller ... however, there is a big difference between being having "complex" views and being "a hardcore Lefty" ... let alone a "moonbat", as another commenter asserted early on.

Apparently Pat Tillman may have bought into that favorite Leftist fallacy, a staple of 20th-century conventional wisdom ...

... that you can only strike those enemies who strike you first; you cannot strike before they do ...

... even if they have a history of capricious brutality that would predispose them to surprise attacks against you or your allies ...

... and even in this day and age, where a single attack can leave thousands dead in the space of a couple of hours (or even less).

In this day and age, where a few dozen guys with $1M or less can perpetrate the events of 11 September 2001, how does it make ANY sense to trust someone of like mind regarding life and liberty with the absolute control of a nation, for any length of time?

That is what the Left, blinded by their BDS, just doesn't get.

The rules have changed.

[Mr.Sparkle]

lol Synova, yes just a little strange!

Rich Casebolt, he didn't like the Iraq invasion specifically, and in case you don't have your glasses on, nobody likes the Iraq invasion nowadays. What Iraq had to do with 9/11 (why Tillman signed up) was zilch.

[JE]

Tillman's Citation States:

“through the firing Tillman’s voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground.”

As I mentioned previously 2 others were wounded and another killed. One of the wounded was Tillman's Platoon Commander and it would seem likely that this quote would have come from him and would hence not be fabricated. One of the men not wounded stated he owed his life to Tillman's quick thinking and courage under fire. His Lieutenant would have observed that action as well. I think he deserved his medal. If bulletts are coming at you and you exhibit unusual and courageous traits under fire it hardly matters who was responsible for the attack - friendlies or otherwise.

It cannot be assumed that everything was wrong just because people found this tragedy difficult to disclose. I personally felt ill when I heard and I wasn't there and did not know but of him!! As to leftist conspiracy theories to descredit the military and the Administration - they would bad mouth their own mother's in order to gain political advantage. Honor to you and RIP Pat...

[JimBimbo]

I have a citation and they made it up.

For what it's worth, Mr. Sparkle.

I mean they seriously made it up. I doubt the person who wrote it ever met me.

It wasn't anything impressive or important, about as unimpressive as possible and still count as a medal, but I do have to admit that it was an interesting bit of creative writing.

That said (repeatedly) I don't think that devalues the award.

----

Synova, I agree. No one should care when the Army tells a well-intentioned fib. Only a MOONBAT would object. MOONBATS who tell lies, or who whine about Army fibs, should be killed. The Tillmans are MOONBATS.

[LongTabSigO]

Ok...just so I understand the relevance:

Tillman was killed in Afghanistan. Why would his position on Iraq be relevant (especially if he was "executed" by his Ranger colleagues)?

This is getting silly.

Cincinati Bob: Yes, the Army is more than capable of multi-tasking. But the Army should not overly contort itself to satisfy one mother over all the others who lost son's. At some point good enough has to be good enough.

[MICHAEL in MI]

This is what Leftists are trying to figure out now: Daily Kos: Was Pat Tillman Killed on Cheney's or Rumsfeld's Orders

Keep in mind that Daily Kos is the most popular Leftist site on the web and has a lot of influence with the Democrat Party, including having many of the top Democrats post on that site.

[MICHAEL in MI]

And then of course we have this: MSNBC: Tillman Possibly Murdered, Supported Kerry

The Left is in full conspiracy mode. And the Democrat Party panders to these people. Sad.

[Mr.Sparkle]

Whilst a conspiracy is quite silly, why is murder not plausible? Army medical officers wanted a criminal investigation. I suppose they were partisan bloggers too.

As for Tillman's last words, seems he really did have some balls under fire

It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you snivelling ..."

[Rich Casebolt]

What Iraq had to do with 9/11 (why Tillman signed up) was zilch.

That is exactly the fallacy I was talking about, Mr. Sparkle.

You, like many critics and even Pat Tillman, believe that this all starts and ends with those directly associated with the 11 September 2001 attacks.

I, and the President, think that 911 was only one (albeit giant-sized) expression of a more ongoing threat to civilization ...

... the threat of totalitarian regimes and trans-national entites in the dysfunctional cauldron of the MidEast, leveraging technology and the freedom of movement that is an essential component of modern, global civilization, to push it in directions that more suit their capricious whims ... without regard to your and my rights to life and liberty.

You wish to treat a symptom.

I think that, if our civilization is to avoid being set back decades ... and millions in the MidEast are going to live to a ripe old age, instead of turning into vapor when the thugs and fanatics force our backs against the wall ... we must act now to eradicate the cancer of totalitarian rule from that part of the world, before the thugs can turn this into an all-out, nation-on-nation World War.

That is what we are doing in Iraq ... and will need to do, elsewhere, unless reasonable people in places like Iran and Syria overcome their thug leadership.

I think if the pollsters asked the question in that light, the numbers would be quite different. However, too many of the pollsters buy into the same conventional wisdom that you do ... as do many others, having been steeped in that conventional wisdom for decades of their lives.

Even, apparently, Pat Tillman.

OTOH, if a few dozen guys with $1M or less could pull off 911 ... why does it make ANY sense to continue to trust someone who had demonstrated that they were of the same mind as Al Quada regarding respect for life and liberty, with the absolute control of an entire, resource-rich, relatively-advanced nation?

I have yet to get a legitimate answer on that, from anyone who holds an anti-war opinion. You care to take a crack at it?

Now, I wish I could have asked Pat Tillman that question ... for I think that, given his love for his nation, he might have changed his mind on Iraq once he considered it.

The old rules were made in the days when tyrants had to raise armies and build ships to attack America, and therefore we could see them coming ... instead of today, when all tyrants have to do to attack America is book a few seats on a widebody and/or ship a container of "pesticide" to New York ...

... or London ...
... or Madrid ...
... or Bali ...
... or Sydney ...
... or Warsaw ...
... or Tokyo ...
... or Taipei ...
... or Seoul ...
... or Paris ...
... or Berlin ...
... or Moscow ...
... or even Bejing ...

... or anywhere else Americans interact with other people to further the global civilization that billions depend upon to facilitate prosperity, freedom, and peace ... a civilization that inherently produces better options for living their lives than the MidEastern paragidm of "making a living" as part of corrupt governance and/or jihad.

You saw this week just how the stock markets are interconnected these days ... and what can happen in them when even the slightest ripple of adversity appears.

Those interconnections are only a small subset of the entire "wiring" of our global civilization ... so think about just how much a succession of terrorist attacks, enabled and encouraged by the "avenge only" attitude you possess, could rip out that vital wiring ... and diminish the peace and prosperity of millions, to the degree that they start adopting the MidEast paragidm as well, while still being "plugged in" enough to the rest of civilization to easily rip out even more of that wiring.

We are all in this together ... one gets hit, we all get hit ... by an enemy who will not differentiate between you and I when it comes to dissenting from their ways.

So, throw away your Smedly Butler quotes and your belief in a hypothetical corporate threat, and focus on the threats that are still working to take us down.

[rgrmom82]

Tillman:

* on the ridge being fired at by Taliban and by his own guys due partly to his own
pride and a navigational/comms
snafu? Guessing.

*Cover up? Probably started at the bottom so that a deployed special forces unit
wouldn't have to deal with his brother, who was also near, going ape shit and killing somebody or a bunch of somebodies out of grief. Also guessing but it makes sense to me. YOU are all trying to logicise what belongs to emotion.

*Wrong to lie? Yes. People under a great deal of stress make decisions they regret which seem to be the best ones at the time. I believe it was an accident and that the cover up was ill-advised but short lived.

*Just guessing, sounds like common sense to me. I wasn't there. I think that he served, he died, and his Army should have told the truth. Which I think they did as soon as they thought it was safe to do so. Now his family needs to let him die.

*I doubt it is even near the
big conspiracy the media is egging his brother and family in to believing.

Doesn't anyone here, my good friends and great minds think it is time to let this man be buried? All of this is just ceepily disrespectful, IMHO.
Please, please let this good man stay in his grave and have the peace and respect he deserves.

[rgrmom82]

where are my posts going/

[MICHAEL in MI]

"Whilst a conspiracy is quite silly, why is murder not plausible?"

Murder is a possibility. That is the reason for the investigation. Murder ordered over his political views is ridiculous, extreme conspiracy mongering.

As we all know, there are many soldiers, though a small minority, who probably subscribe to the ideology of Daily Kos, Cindy Sheehan, Keith Olbermann, Rosie O'Donnell and the most Left of Americans. Being in the military and highly qualified to be a soldier does not prohibit one from being an idiot who lacks logic and common sense on other matters. As such, it is completely feasible to honor someone's service to their country while not respecting them as a person. (ie, John Kerry, John Murtha, etc)

The point is that the Left simply will not discuss these issues with any sort of credibility and it hurts the national debate on important issues such as this.

[MICHAEL in MI]

Rich - I admire your effort and I have echoed your logic and words in so many different blog posts, debates with family, friends and coworkers and online debates over the past few years, and have realized that all the facts and logic and history and reality in the world can be completely discredited and thrown aside with two simple words: "Bush Lied".

This is why I have given up on the Left. I am glad, though, that there are people such as yourself, GRIM and Laughing Wolf (and many others) who have not and continue to try to engage them.

[Mr.Sparkle]

Rich Casebolt (your name is cool, like a noir detective)

What I, and perhaps Pat, believe is that the United States use of war should have ended with Afghanistan.

You accuse me of suffering from a conventional thinking problem, but what about your conventional thinking problem. You think you can march in and 'eradicate the source' of terrorism through occupying a single essentially non-threatening country (at least thoroughly mischaracterised threat*) and shooting and bombing the resistance.

That's even more idealistic than believing there would be no spurned sectarian/regional and Islamic resistance at all from an invasion.

I'm not saying we should have treated Iraq or Iran impotently or ignored them, the internals of state behaviour is important to our foreign politics, but the military invasion of Iraq was a serious error by nearly all accounts (in hindsight).

Just as a minor point you mention interconnectedness, but the US has acted almost unilaterally, ignoring the institutions that provide horizontal connections between nations and simply acting like a supreme force ("American exceptionalism" at work again). No, the other countries of the world are not corrupt and not taking kickbacks from Iraq. Your interconnected world has resulted in a 'virulently negative' reaction to Iraq, and it looks like a bloody shambles.

So in summary I, and perhaps Pat, believe that attacking Afghanistan and, in concert, mounting a $300,000,000,000 SpecOps/Police/PsyOps operation against Islamic terrorism would have been quite a bit more useful than invading silly old Iraq.

I think if US service personnel had this option, considering their love for their nation (and lives), perhaps they would have ticked it instead.

* there is a difference between Islamist terrorists and rogue state/proliferation problem

[Arch]

Mr. Sparkle:

Pat Tillman is a dead American soldier. His last words (plural) may have included both the two you cited above. His death was a tragedy in human terms and will be a source of enduring pain for this family. His politics are of no relevance here. Out of respect for him and his family, you may want to refrain from the sarcasm you used above.

Friendly fire deaths are particularily damaging to all the units involved. Physical wounds heal with time. The burden of responsibility for a combat accident will last a lifetime. Again, none of these troops need flippant remarks from you.

Combat is chaotic and frightening which makes training very important. It can be very loud. If a grenade or artillery shell explodes nearby, soldiers my not be able to hear and they may be disoriented and confused. Soldiers may revert to what they did in training.

Special forces are very skilled marksmen who train constantly for ambush and encounter battles. For the size of their units, SOF use massive amounts of fire power. Army medical examiners are neither trained in the use of automatic weapons nor in the conduct of night small unit light infantry tactics. The facts will be released.

Regarding the legality of war, the United States of America reserves the right to act preemptively to protect our national interest without the consent of the international organizations. The President requested the authority to use force and both Houses of Congress approved by overwhelming, bipartisan majorities. At the direction of the Commander-in-Chief, the armed forces executed legal orders in Operation Iraqi Freedom in coalition with 31 nations.

Nothing illegal about it.

And, what Rich Casebolt said!

[Arch]

Sparkle:

We are waging a global war on terrorists in places you and I do not know. Iraq seems, however, to be a terrorist-rich environment.

We have offered to leave Iraq, but their duly elected government has asked us to stay.

[Mr.Sparkle]

Can I just say Arch that I was only praising Pat Tillman. He obviously didn't just absorb the army propaganda and thought about his service, he was also studying/going to study history.

[Toliver]

At what angle did the rounds come from? [In other words, what side of the head was Tillman shot?]

What happened to Tillman's helmet?

[liyak]

Why wouldn't the Army investigate?It's a rule of thumb,to receive evidence before giving a defence or offence!Therefore,they are illegally witholding justice.

[Rich Casebolt]

Mr. Sparkle:

I will give you this ... you at least are willing to engage in a coherent discussion, as opposed to the mindless parrotting of BDS-driven talking points we get from the Lord HaWW HaWW's/JimBimbo's of the blogosphere.

Let me start with your last, first:

So in summary I, and perhaps Pat, believe that attacking Afghanistan and, in concert, mounting a $300,000,000,000 SpecOps/Police/PsyOps operation against Islamic terrorism would have been quite a bit more useful than invading silly old Iraq.

* there is a difference between Islamist terrorists and rogue state/proliferation problem

Wrong ... not when the Islamist terrorists consistently are supported by the rogue states.

Would Hamas and Hezbollah have anywhere near the staying power they have demonstrated, without sucking off the terror teats of Syria, Iran ... and Iraq?

For that matter, ... at the very least, even those "few dozen guys" who perpetrated 911 did have one source of assistance I did not mention; the provision of safe haven by the Taliban. That's not to say they absolutely needed that safe haven to pull off 911 ... but I am sure it helped.

You can't deal with the terror, without dealing with its support networks ... supporters who perceive that such trans-national capabilities benefit them, to the point that ... from what I see ... if the networks cited above didn't exist, they would create them.

... but the US has acted almost unilaterally, ignoring the institutions that provide horizontal connections between nations and simply acting like a supreme force ("American exceptionalism" at work again).

Wrong again ... at the behest of your PM, we went to the UN, even in the face of those Seventeen Toothless Resolutions, in the World's Longest Rush to War.

And in the decades before that, we tried working within those institutions to resolve the problems posed by Iraq, Al Quada, and those of like mind.

We tried it your way ... and we got 911, instead.

And since when did we treat the Coalition like an exclusive club, rejecting anyone who recognized the prudence and wisdom of removing Saddam & Sons from power in Iraq, and was willing to join us?

This is not a case of American "might makes right" ... it was right in OBJECTIVE TERMS. The problem is, too many others, driven by idealism and/or realpolitik, were unwilling to acknowledge that!

Understand this: consensus that is not based upon sound principle, leads to humanity emulating the lemmings.

To not follow the crowd, when wisdom and prudence leads one to take such a divergent path, is the second most important thing my father taught me ... and I will be damned if I will let you or others hold my nation hostage to "consensus"!

You, as a British citizen, should know that ... after your country stood almost alone in the face of Hitler at the start of WWII ... with FDR acting in ways that today would twist the knickers of critics like you, to prepare for it ... while the international "consensus" was that war, and especially American involvement in it, was to be avoided by any means necessary ... a position held by many, even celebrities of the day like Charles Lindbergh?

The problem isn't that we think we are better than the world ... the problem is that, just as in the 1930's too many in the world are unwilling to recognize the objective WISDOM of engaging in decisive -- and even preemptive -- warfare to remove demonstrated totalitarians from power.

They instead believe that American power projection is the primary problem ... and try to bring America down to their level of understanding, instead of rising in OBJECTIVE terms to a level of wisdom that equals, or even surpasses, that of America.

No, the other countries of the world are not corrupt and not taking kickbacks from Iraq.

Never said they ALL were ... but the UN was being corrupted by Saddam through Crude-for-Food.

The greater problem, is that too many nations ... out of slavish dedication to the same conventional wisdom you exhibit ...

... or persist in engaging in the 20th-century realpolitik of "containment" and proxy warfare, instead of being willing to get their hands soiled with the dirt of direct confronation of totalitarian regimes and terrorist groups ...

... or flat-out envy of American/Western success, but apparently lacking the will to do the heavy lifting (and adoption of rights-respecting governance) to rise to that level of success themselves ...

... have adopted the foolishness of an over-reliance upon diplomacy to resolve conflict, treating dictator and democrat with the same deference ... even when the dictator can exploit the deference to further the agenda of totalitarian expansion.

Your interconnected world has resulted in a 'virulently negative' reaction to Iraq, and it looks like a bloody shambles.

So did Germany in late 1945 ... a great example of how a two-bit tyrant can threaten civilization when left alone long enough to do so ...

... in that case, left alone about seven to eight years or so.

In fact, Germany looked worse ... for her people were ground to powder then. That is something we CHOSE not to do to the Iraqi people ...

.... instead of wantonly destroying their nation to get at the thugs in their midst, as we had to do in 1945, we had the choice -- and made it, even though it would cost more in time and risk to Coalition forces to do so -- to minimize the impact of our warfare on the Iraqi people as much as possible.

And never, ever, ever lose sight of THIS:

the VAST MAJORITY of the pain and suffering that has been inflicted upon the Iraqi people has been done by the ENEMY, who TARGETS THEM ... NOT COALITION FORCES!

There will be peace ... as soon as this enemy stops doing what they are doing.

Not before.

Not even if we leave now.

Not even if we never went to Iraq.

Only the battlefield would change ... it would eventually encroach upon the soil of our respective nations, attacking the socioeconomic infrastructure we now utilize to keep them at bay ... right along with our people.

That is what your conventional wisdom would produce, were we to heed your ideas.

[JE]

Sparkle: "What I, and perhaps Pat, believe is that the United States use of war should have ended with Afghanistan".

Unless you are able to claim and prove a personal conversation with Pat Tillman over his personal views, please refrain from stating what he believed or may have believed! All we KNOW is that he joined the military after 9/11 and wished to serve his country which he did and he died in Afgahnistan where his actions were directed. There are many saying now that he said this and said that, however it is easy enough to attribute to a dead man, particularly one you are attempting to use in death, for your own purposes, any number of errant views or quotes. It is totally dispicable to use the man in this way when he can not defend his honor, his reputation or his motivations.

If you wish, Sparkle, to discuss your views, go ahead, but do not attempt to speak for a dead man who has proved his worth in battle but who cannot refute you in any manner whatsoever and who might find any association with you repugnant.

[Ymarsakar]

If you wish, Sparkle, to discuss your views, go ahead, but do not attempt to speak for a dead man who has proved his worth in battle but who cannot refute you in any manner whatsoever and who might find any association with you repugnant.

Spark'll speak for Satan himself if he is promised a deathmatch duel between Spark's favorite soldiers and fighters.

[Ymarsakar]

What's that about believing the Army Ymarsakar? Apparently they just make the citations up!

I'll decide what is made up or not, not your propaganda sources, Spark.

In essence it is true that the Left is trying to smear Pat Tillman's service in order to assimilate it into their fold for their own use.

Again, propaganda has layers, not just the single layer you think exists, Spark.

You think you can march in and 'eradicate the source' of terrorism through occupying a single essentially non-threatening country (at least thoroughly mischaracterised threat*) and shooting and bombing the resistance.

You think strength comes from fighting. Strength comes from unity, not fighting or bombs.

I think if US service personnel had this option, considering their love for their nation (and lives), perhaps they would have ticked it instead.

You would have ticked the option, Spark.

[Mr.Sparkle]

JE, steady on mate. For one, Tillman's family have spoken of his politics, apparently his mother had lined him up a call with Noam Chomsky, who he had read. And I consider myself a conservative...

Pat Tillman could have been a right wing isolationist, or a liberal internationalist, or in the middle. Though it appears he wasn't what you are, and at least agreed with me on a single point.

Rich, Iraq: threat to whom? Iraq was effectively contained (compare to Iran and North Korea) in terms of proliferation threat. In terms of terrorism it was an extremely minor blip on Israel's radar (however the invasion of Iraq is extremely potent component of Israel's defence). It has nothing to do with America. The American invasion of Iraq over estimates the threat, underestimates the 'blowback' of opinion in the Muslim world (who'd have thought, they think you are the bad guys!).

The war on Iraq is also contained. It is not a war on fundamental states. Neoconservatives would potentially see a domino effect if their theory actually worked, but a natural domino effect will not occur in Iraq (the real theory apparently works like osmosis, and unfortunately Iraq is surrounded by anti-democratic elements). After the 'failures' in Iraq there is zero potential for engaging other states.

Apparently half the foreign terrorists in Iraq actually come from Saudi Arabia (9/11 anyone?).

On Afghanistan: that was a fair idea, yet it would run a hell of a lot smoother if the US and UK could put all their resources into it.

"And in the decades before that, we tried working within those institutions to resolve the problems posed by Iraq, Al Quada, and those of like mind."

I think the US determined they were going to attack Iraq in 2002.

Powered by this idea that the world can be changed, made better by a few great people.

[Mr.Sparkle]

Ymarsakar,

What Pat Tillman believed about where he fought was a part of his service as much as it was a part of him. Whatever he was, his opinions obviously count to some people. You are very cynical when it suits you.

Would I have chosen to attack only Afghanistan? Of course, who honestly wouldn't forego the misery of Iraq. I certainly would not be happy doing service there. Would you?

[LPierson]

Here is a link to a Department of the Army FOIA website, this particular page contains video footage of CID'S look at the scene. This link can also get you to the 15-6 and CID investigation reports that are in PDF. The names have been redacted, however all of the info is there.

https://www2.arims.army.mil/rmdaxml/rmdadocuments/ERR%20DOCUMENTS/Tillman-USACIDC_Media.asp

Regardless of Pat Tillman's alledged opinions, and unsubstaniated conclusions pointing to nefarious actions, as well as the wrangling discourse about Iraq, there are a couple somethings about this case that MOST everyone here is overlooking, with the possible exception of one or two of you. Those "things" being the command dilemna of celebrity and the "zero-defects" culture of the 75th RGR Regiment.

Yeah, I know he said he just wanted to be just like the rest of the soldiers and strove on his part to live up to that. However, he could not escape his past. I am QUITE sure that all within the CoC (from USASOC down) could not either. I can't imagine (however I do not sympathize...) the absolute fear and loathing that many in the 75th's chain of command may have had when Pat Tillman became a member of the Regiment. "Holy S**T, an NFL celebrity could get killed on my watch...!!!" If one doesn't believe Tillman's joining didn't cause that ripple then one is completely naive and willingly ignorant.

One of the oft reviewed actions at both JRTC and NTC is fratricide. Most fratricide events occur at squad level and below, and during hours of limited light and visibility. The most important human factor in these events is inexperience. In the Ranegers folks are bounced (in a reactive manner) from the Regiment over accidental discharges of their weapons and other offenses - mistakes of inexperience. Thusly, we now come to second part: (and I do tread tenuously here), the ultra zero-defects culture that exists at BN level and below within the 75th contributed to this unfortunate event. Tillman's unit had been pushing HARD onto an objective, had vehicle break-downs, and was behind the time-line stated in the execution matrix. IMHO, having looked at the videos, read through the documents and feeling the "old soldiers" pang in the gut that one gets when things just don't look right, Pat Tillman made a huge mistake. His Platoon leadrship made a huge mistake, as well as everyone above him. He was out front of the guns without effective comms, his platoon leadership allowed him to go forward without comms and coordinating actions "between their adjacent units", meaning the serials, and insuring they had appropriate control measures in place. I can only imagine the state of utter confusion just standing by waiting to happen.

Again IMHO, too many above the incident just could not reconcile the fact that a real big tactical mistake occurred. Which meant telling the world (and his parents) that Pat Tillman made a mistake, and "Holy S**T" other Rangers made a mistake. Thus, the mistake continued all the way up to USASOC.

Some of you may be really interested in why it appears that CPL Tillman had three M-16 bullet holes in his forehead, an M249 SAW fires the same round at 750-1000 rounds per minute. I think your interest is wasted. Maybe this event is actually too simplistic for some of you here, but sometimes simplistic is just what it is...

And Mr. Sparkle, take your feelings off of your sleeve, you too are very cynical when it suits you.

[MICHAEL in MI]

People continue to spout the lie that the war effort in Iraq is "illegal". By their logic that Iraq was not a threat and did not attack us, then we should also call afghanistan an "illegal" war, as Afghanistan was not a threat to us and did not attack us. The Taliban did not attack us, al Qaeda, stationed in terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, attacked us. So if the Leftists who want to keep saying that the effort in Iraq is illegal, I hope they also realize that their logic states that Afghanistan is illegal.

But reality states that al Qaeda was training in terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, Iraq and other places in the Middle East. Afghanistan was the first step to rid the Middle East of these training camps, Iraq was step two and then step 3 and beyond will include Iran, Syria, Hamas in "Palestine" and Hezb'Allah in Lebanon. And additionally Pakistan, since Osama is apparently hiding out there now and the Democrats say that we should go after him.

This is, and always has been, a *global* war against Islamic jihadists.

[rgrmom82]

BTW type pad is a royal PIA:)

I think obsessing over balistics and forensics is not only gross and immature but ranks with gravedigging masquerading as journalism. I is the very essence of what the MSM does and in no way enhances the discussion.

[rgrmom82]

oops "it" is not "I" is

[Synova]

Waitaminute.

Pat Tillman wasn't the only one who died in the incident?

Others were wounded?

It's pretty sad, really, that I didn't know that. Is that true?

And we're supposed to believe, somehow, that someone wanted to murder Pat Tillman because of his politics and it was worth killing and wounding other people in their squad as well?

If we're going that way on it, maybe it wasn't about him at all. Why are we supposed to believe that it was all about Pat Tillman when other men died and were wounded? Maybe it was about one of *them*.

All this time I thought Pat Tillman was the only one hit. JE said: "As I mentioned previously 2 others were wounded and another killed. One of the wounded was Tillman's Platoon Commander..."

If that's true I think I'm a bit pissed at Tillman's family as well, if they're feeding into this "It's all about Pat" thing.

[michael098762001]

Sick Leftist blogger."Fragging redivivus."
http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/2007/07/whats_old_is_new_again_fraggin.html

[Cincinnati_Bob]

LongTabSigo.

I understand some people think Pat Tillman is getting more attention purely because of his celebrity status. Just like a Basketball or NFL player would in a routine criminal event.

But it looks like many, including those with plenty of experience believe there is much yet to be revealed. So I disagree with you. Reveal the info and let the chips fall. Like this country can't take a little info. We've heard it all by now.

[Cassandra]

LPierson, shame on you!

If you continue to try and introduce calm reasoning and facts into this discussion, I will have no choice but to ask the site owner to ban you... :p

Seriously, that is the most plausible explanation of any of this that I have ever read, and it squares with almost 30 years of watching investigations unfold, observing mishaps in training and recruit commands, and seeing how people react when 'bad things' happen and they have to try and explain tragedy to a family in an environment where they're afraid someone's private loss will be picked up and tossed around like a political football.

It's an age-old problem and people still behave in the same ways, for what are often very good reasons. Over the years, I've come to wonder whether where wouldn't have been just as big a furor if they'd come right out with it, but I doubt anyone will believe that. The media would still have engaged in a years-long feeding frenzy over it, wondering "Wow... what if this happened, what ELSE is going on that they AREN'T telling us???"

Which is why, I think, people behave this way. Doesn't make it right. Does make it somewhat understandable.

What an awful, awful mess for everyone concerned.

[Cassandra]

Oh, and to head off the inevitable shrieking, I did *not* just say I approved of the cover up.

I'm just saying I understand the motivation for it and am not sure that the results would have been any better (and might even have been worse) had they come out with the "we investigated the murder theory" at the time, even if it was eventually dismissed. I don't think the press would ever have let go of that one - there'd have been conspiracy theories and coverup allegations even if the Army had been investigated and been able to PROVE it wasn't murder.

It is still better to do the right thing, even when the consequences suck, and take your medicine.

[Chickenman]

In war, people get dead.

Assume, for sake of argument, that Tillman was executed by his unit. What would cause a unit to execute one of their own?

Moonbat? No. Outspoken moonbat? No.

Behavior that will get other members in their unit killed? Yes.

What kind of behavior? Gung-ho reckless behavior, for one.

Was Tillman like that? I don't know.

[Steven Andrew Miller]

Thanks for the links, Mr. Miller ... however, there is a big difference between being having "complex" views and being "a hardcore Lefty" ... let alone a "moonbat", as another commenter asserted early on.

I didn't call him a "moonbat" but I am yet to know person who is a fan of Chomsky, such a big fan he wanted to meet with him, who is not a hardcore Lefty. And let me go further and state that people who fans of Chomsky's ideas have the least complex views of anyone you will ever meet.

Regardless of his political views, Corporal Tillman honorably served his nation. I am not even attempting to say otherwise.

[Ymarsakar]

You are very cynical when it suits you.

I just know you Spark. You and your fellow compatriots. You can not really expect me to lower my guard. I've seen what happens then, as I have seen it happen to many fortresses when the barbarians were at the gates.

I certainly would not be happy doing service there. Would you?

Duty is not something you take up to be happy.

It is rather decadent to believe that service is designed to make the individuals serving, happy. Fullfilled perhaps, satisfied with the difference they are making, but "happy"? Few people are happy in war, and those that are, you better not turn your back on them.

What an awful, awful mess for everyone concerned.

It is always easier to blow something up, Cass, then to put the pieces back together.

[Mr.Sparkle]

Well, I didn't mean happy as in lying on my buttocks eating dates from the hands of beautiful women.

I meant satisfied. Duty isn't like paying taxes, it and politics coincide. If I am not happy because of my politics then it makes a mockery of duty. I might as well be hacking my own leg off for fun.

Which is probably what half the national guard is thinking "one weekend a month two weeks a year my ass"

[bthun]

Ahhh jeeeze,

Duty isn't like paying taxes, it and politics coincide. If I am not happy because of my politics then it makes a mockery of duty.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. This tells me that there is no point in trying to explain the meaning of swearing an oath to defend the US Constitution and the US Republic, not any one political party or ideology, and then upholding your oath.

Unbelievable...

[Mr.Sparkle]

No I agree with you bthun. I didn't say you couldn't be a dutiful soldier and loyal - upholding the oath to serve - and still regret it and be made a fool of (hence make a mockery of it).

You can serve, do your duty, but you don't have to honour that title if you don't believe it was purposeful.

It's like the people who came back from Vietnam who threw their medals away (they might regret that now). You know, what was the point of this all, their duty?

[sanddog]

I'm having a difficult time believing that the following words could come from the mouth of a moonbat:

`Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

Moonbat or Army Ranger? I don't believe you can effectively be both at the same time.

[douglas]

"Which is probably what half the national guard is thinking "one weekend a month two weeks a year my ass""

I don't think they've used that line since we realized the war started (9/11).
I seriously doubt anyone joins the NG assuming they'll never get called up now.