Michael Yon - Bless The Beasts And The Children

Posted By Subsunk

Michael Yon has an important post on the war and our enemy. Reporting like this cannot be minimized. If our own press was responsible with our safety and security, they would be reporting things like this.

But they are not. You will never find an expose of our enemies ina MSM news article, at least not until they have accomplished their mission of ensuring that everything bad in the world is blamed on George W Bush, and a Dhimmicrat -- ANY Dhimmicrat, is firmly seated in the Oval Office.

Until then, remember that the people who did this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this..... I guess you get the picture.... do not care if you are a good person or if you are innocent. You do not meet their warped definition of a good Muslim, and that is enough reason for them to separate your head from your neck.

If you don't get the picture, there is no help for you. Logic escapes you. Realism and actual events cannot persuade you to change your world view. You are defined by your ability to deny that anyone could ever hate you and kill you just because you are American.

After all, that has never happened before that some one would kill another person solely because they weren't of the same religion, race, creed, or nationality. Would it?

Subsunk out.

PS, if Michael Yon doesn't deserve a tip to his tipjar from you, then nobody on this Earth does.

Out.

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This is the act of our enemy, not criminals as many on the left try to make them out to be, but our enemy. What is that you ask? It's from Michael Yon's latest post on the fighting going on... [Read More]

Comments

[Cro]

His post is indeed powerful. Yon is doing single handedly what the entire MSM has failed to do. He is indeed living up to the legacy

[jordan]

For some reason, one can't even blame the insane psychotics for such savagery. I'm feeling more rage toward the Iraqi population, which can't as a group make a committment, expel their enemy, recognize their allies, and do for themselves what they expect our boys to do.

Why can't they stand up and get their country together? What kind of people are these, who stand back and let foreign young men take their country for them.

Do they have any honor, these losers? How does a whole country stand by while deaths like this happen. If I were of Iraqi descent, I would be horribly embarrassed by the uselessness of my countrymen.

[Uncle Jefe]

I just read Yon's dispatch, copied the link, and emailed it to Murtha, Pelosi, and my so-called 'representative' Mike Thompson.
Doubt they'll read it.
Doubt they'd care anyway.

[Rich Casebolt]

The critics will blame America for these deaths ...

... yet who is it that killed the people in these pictures? Did their killers have American flags velcroed on their shoulders?

I don't think so.

If the perpetrators of such violence stop their perpetration ... either on their own, or are forced to do so by others ... the alleged "civil war" in Iraq would dissipate into thin air.

Immediately.

America isn't the murderer, here.

Keep that in mind, critics, as you hijack events like these to spread your B(D)S.

Thanks to Michael Yon for getting this message out ... and may those few-and-far-between islands of responsible journalism within our media pass it on with all possible speed.

[William hAZEN]

I am sure Micheal Yon likes folks like Subsunk drafting his persona and his excellent reporting to push his point of view....

Nice Try but only your pig has wings Subsunk...

Uuuuh.... No one doubts the enemy is evil that is the nature of War. We all hate evil and wish to destroy "the evildoers' (funny... I have heard that somewhere before) even the mainstream media.Once again the so called expert here takes this out of context Hubris thinking that Iraqi's are not Sunni or Shia not driven by Tribal Loyalties,or cruelty, or revenge for in some cases hundreds of years of oppression or slaughter but Well heck!!! Why can't they just be American or at least "Western" after all... we're the good guys.

If only life were as simple as some of the folks wish it was...

More tired old cliches...

Let's hope Pretreaus can over come 500 generations of alien cultural values in time....

William Hazen

[JG]

JORDAN: DO NOT BLAME THE VICTIMS!!! You speak from the advantage of living in a country that has not had the emotional and mind bending experience of being ruled by psychotic madmen who killed people for target practice or fed them into wood chippers or raped and killed family members in front of loved ones until the one overriding emotion was fear and then zombie-like apathy. I am a nurse and have studied both psychology and psychiatry and know that this is what can happen under small percentages of what these people as a nation have had to endure. The only thing that makes me as angry as seeing what is being done to innocent man, women and children are people who will turn it around and blame the innocent instead of the guilty.

If soldiers can experience and do experience PTSD from their deployments, please for a moment consider what is done to the human mind and the human spirit when you must live under the circumstances that this population has had to live under for a life time. Pray God you never have to live 30 years under this and then follow it with the uncertainty of thinking for the past 4 years that at any moment American troops might be pulled home as the Dhimmicrats keep threatening, along with their RINO handmaidens, leaving them to the blood lust of Al Qaeda and the Sunni Insurgents. How daring would you be if you thought that tomorrow you would be abandoned. Don't you think you are a bit judgemental? Meanwhile, we have such as the Dhimmicrats who think we can escape this by coming home and people like you who are incapable of discerning the anguish these people have known and cut them a margin of slack. Obviously you missed a population of 10,000.000 who came out to vote under threat of death. We cannot even vote here in such percentages with no threats at all. How many people have been executed like this - countless numbers!!!!!

That said, the Iraqi people ARE doing much without acknowledgement or fanfare and many are dying for their efforts, as soldiers and civilians, both officials and just plain people are cut down for taking a stand or as in this small town for existing. They deserve at least in death a recognition of what they have sacrificed and what they have been up against. Turn your venom against the American left that has added such a terrible uncertainty about our ongoing help, to their daily anguish. I might add that all of Europe, the Pacific and Asia required assistance in shaking off an evil far less formidable than this.
***

Michael Yon has sent us all a realization, if we needed it and some do, what it is that we are fighting and I thank him. This war will not be over until these B******* are sent to hell as they deserve. It will not be done in a few weeks or a few months or a few years. We are in a LONG STRUGGLE and if we do not place the blame where it belongs and summons ourselves to the task that will require our every effort and our unity of spirit then we will be overcome and will lose what was given to us by our far more hardy forefathers.

Michael will get a deposit to his tipjar, for I am eternally grateful for his efforts. Please everyone, send his post to all you know. Subsunk is right that this horror will not be carried in the MSM and if ever there was a need to know, it is about this.

[ledger]

Yon is a good reporter.

As for handling this Al Qaeda monster, he needs to be aggressively debrief. I am sure he knows some big fish.

Next, create trap to ID his buddies. I don’t know if this is legal in Iraq but here goes.

After, a thorough interrogation drop the AQ slime ball in clanger. Then set a reasonably high bail.

When an associated or intermediary comes to “bail” him out, inspect the associate’s documents, and detain him on some charge. Then aggressively debrief him. He probably knows some big fish also.

Put out notice for “bail” for the associate. See who shows up. It will probably be associate #2. Inspect associate #2's documents and detain him on some charge. Then aggressively debrief him. He too probably knows some big fish.

Repeat the process until the MNF gets the name and location of a big fish – or the associates run dry.

Then, turn them all over the Iraq “justice system.” The Iraqis will put the AQ thug in bottle and possibly his associates.

Then, put out a notice for someone to pick up the remains. See who comes. Then…

[Kate Shanahan]

It's just a matter of time before they try to do that to us in the States, leave us and our children to rot above the ground. The Iraqi people have been terrorized for decades, learning the hard way to not take a stand. Many are probably fearful of what will happen when we leave, and the animals come out to slaughter everyone who stood with us.

The traitors among us who advocate pullout and divide this nation bear much of the responsibility for the increased difficulty of this war. Our Congress, Democrats and Republicans alike, are the wrong people to represent these courageous soldiers and the rest of us at home. Our elected officials are not cowards, they are far worse. They are a particular brand of debased human form, sociopathic bottom feeders who would sell us all out, men, women, children, friends, foes - all of us - for an election.

We have a lot of work to do here to fix this mess so you guys aren't betrayed at every turn. I don't think the dumbed down generation can summon the cones to push all of these guys to the slag heap.

[tom]

Traitors amongst us.. lol Kate, pass me the bong.

[Subsunk]

Comment below written by: William hAZEN I am sure Micheal Yon likes folks like Subsunk drafting his persona and his excellent reporting to push his point of view....

Nice Try but only your pig has wings Subsunk...

Uuuuh.... No one doubts the enemy is evil that is the nature of War. We all hate evil and wish to destroy "the evildoers' (funny... I have heard that somewhere before) even the mainstream media.Once again the so called expert here takes this out of context Hubris thinking that Iraqi's are not Sunni or Shia not driven by Tribal Loyalties,or cruelty, or revenge for in some cases hundreds of years of oppression or slaughter but Well heck!!! Why can't they just be American or at least "Western" after all... we're the good guys.

If only life were as simple as some of the folks wish it was...

More tired old cliches...

Let's hope Pretreaus can over come 500 generations of alien cultural values in time....

William Hazen

Posted by: William hAZEN | Jul 1, 2007 3:30:46 PM

As usual, there is always someone who would rather bury their heads in the sand and do nothing because "it is too hard", "it has always been that way", and "little brown people have been doing it for thousands of years and don't deserve our help stopping it". American lives are not supposed to be used to stop tyranny like this. Just ask Mr. hAZEN. He'd rather all Iraqis die than risk one American life to end a millenium of carnage. So do bin Ladin and al Zawahiri.

Anyone else? Bueller?? Anyone???

Oink, oink, Willie.

Subsunk

[Subsunk]

tom, if the shoe fits......

Subsunk

[jordan]

Uh, excuse me, JG, but one reason I so strongly support this military is because I grew up in a right wing dictatorship and saw how the U.S. military presence spelled the difference between a decent life and oblivion. I did not grow up in this safe, easy, free country, where one can't be just be snatched off the street on a tyrant's whim, so an education in repression is not necessary.

I'm tired of seeing the good young men my sister and I raised sweating it out in 130 degree weather while we see shots of able-bodied Iraqi men standing on street corners. If anything, we have not been judgemental enough, and have coddled and psychologized too much.

OK, they were victims! Today, they have the chance to make something of themselves, and of their country. They will have to fight and sacrifice for it themselves, just as our sons, nephews and brothers are sacrificing for them, and we do them no favors by extending them the safe haven of victimhood.

But if it is "venom" to expect these extremely reasonable things, after five years, to expect some reciprocity from the Iraqis, well then, forget it. I know the Iraqis are desperate, under threat, being killed, facing horrors in daily life, and many who are joining up and trying to stand up to AQ, and have prevailed in Anbar. Fabulous. Do it some more.

I know lines and lines of police recruits have been massacred as well as our own troops. But our politicians are turning their sights on cutting off funding AGAIN next week, and they are running out of time.

Read what Yon, Kilcullen or the General in charge of the transition and training, have said about the Iraqi units under fire. Some are doing great, but others don't seem to be pulling it together. Why? Why don't they have the will to protect and build up their own country? Is it a country, of strong and proud people? Can decent humans first not tolerate such carnage, get the security situation under control, and then set about the process of governance to hash out what kind of country they want to have -- in peace?

Or is that just too much to ask, because they're victims, they didn't ask for this.

Sorry, but they're the ones up at plate now. I'm plumb out of sympathy. We have such outstanding young men in our officer corps and ranks, who have achieved so much in and out of the military. Strong academics, athletics, and integrity are the norm, not the exception. Our country needs them after the war.

We have given our magnificent boys over to the Iraqis so they can have the time and space to organize their political house, by staving off the violence for long enough.

I expect the Iraqis to do their share immediately, even if they were victims. Reports today show civilian deaths have decreased dramatically since the surge began. That's good. They now have their own job to do, and they damn well better be doing it. Now. Today.

Yes, the torture under Saddam was bad, one reason why we supported our flesh and blood joining the fight.

But now it is time for the rubber to meet the road. The dikes are holding, because our soldiers are holding them up, and the Iraqis and their government are now at center stage.

I've done enough railing about the left to do it in my sleep, and will continue to do so, but am quickly losing patience with running to check on every bombing to see which unit was involved, and then hearing that the parliament wants a summer recess. However, do not mistake this for lack of will to win. We are all ready to support a crushing blow if so required.

[arch]

If you think it's our fault or the Iraqi's fault, read Mike's post again. Look at the pictures. Those are Iraqi Army troops burying Iraqi civilians murdered by savages. To those who just want to ignore them and play video games and listen to rapp music, if you get your way, we're on their list.

The Iraqis understand whose fault it is. It's al Qaeda's fault for doing it. It's islam's fault for tolerating it. It's Russia's and China's and France's and Germany's fault for enabling it. It's the UN's fault for not intervening earlier.

Two years from now, I hope it won't be our fault for running away.

[rgrmom82]

Jordan, I think the problems witht he Iraqis getting it together so to speak is the fact that
no matter what they do, the bad guys find out. Then they lose their jobs, or a family member is executed. I for one am dammned impressed by the continued efforts of the Iraqi civilians to volunteer for the police force in light of the fact that they get bombed on a a grossssly more frequent basis. I think that just to get up in the morning and show up for training is about the best you can get for now. You need to have a little patience. This is a proud culture and poor.
Thereby, bribery and double cross are common. I think we're going to have to be deployed a lot longer and it's going to take some patience and the americans are going to have to get over their need for immediate gratification and fund the troops.

[Michael in MI]

jordan - I share your sentiments, but then I look to our own government here in America. After 200+ years, we can't even get our own elected "leaders" to come together to do what is best for the country, especially during a time of war. Our country has gone through decades of evolution, progress and various movements to improve ourselves to get to where we are today: a still imperfect nation made up of imperfect people who elect many imperfect "leaders" who, many a time, turn out to be corrupt, greedy liars.

Yet, here we sit in judgement of the Iraqis who have not gotten their act together in a mere 5 years?

On top of which, we are supposed to be the example for what Iraq is to become? When one entire party works to completely undermine the entire country solely for political gain and power?

I have a little more patience for the Iraqis. Considering America did not turn into "utopia" in 5 years, we cannot expect a people who have lived under brutal dictatorship and live by an ideology that, in my opinion, is a death cult passing itself off as a "religion"... to completely change their ideology and way of life in 5 years, simply because we said so.

Oh and in addition to having to completely change their way of thinking from dictatorship to liberty/democracy, change from oppressive death cult religion to some form of secularism... they must do all this under the threat of death from Iranians, Pakistanis, al Qaeda, militias, etc AND while using the completely broken system of government here in America as a "guide", while half of America participates in sedition.

I share your frustrations with the situation, jordan, but I do not blame the Iraqi people. I put the blame solely where it should be: on the centuries of Islamic indoctrination and brainwashing in the Middle East, on the treason of half our political "leadership" in Washington, on the spinelessness of the other half of our political "leadership" in Washington and on the complete and utter ignorance of 75% of America regarding the threat we face from the Islamic global conquest and regarding understanding of Islam overall.

Plain and simple, if we were a UNITED States of America, as a civilian population, as a media and as a government, this war effort would have been over already or at least very much closer to having demoralized our enemies.

We must also not forget that the Iraqi government remembers all too well about the history of withdrawal of America and they hear about the actions of the Democrats here, they hear about the efforts of the media to undermine the war and they hear about the lack of support the American people as a whole have when polls are reported showing less than 40% support of staying to help them. Taking that into consideration, they know that security is their biggest concern and they will side with whomever will give it to them, especially considering Iran wants to move in.

There are so many things going on to simply put the blame on the Iraqi government officials. It is so easy for us to criticize them from our comfy, carefree American lives. But we must not forget the big picture and all the interconnected situations going on.

[JG]

Jordan: "I'm plumb out of sympathy".

JG: "I'm sorry but I doubt you ever had any! It is not really relevant where you grew up, but rather were you are now. Take an Iraqi away from this horror and maybe with the passage of some time, they too would be different. You credit them for nothing, being just like the MSM in that you see and take only one side. Your attitude is one of disdain and cruelty. You ask about their honor and call them losers? You have not an iota of understanding.

I have been a part of the military family for many, many years and you and your sister are not alone in the contribution to this nation's efforts in harm's way. Having someone you care about in Iraq does not excuse your attitude and in fact your attitude is counter-productive.

I would suggest that YOU reread Kilcullen and in particular the part about hearts and minds. You are not making it in that regard. Study up on counter insurgency - there are infrequent "crushing blows". I am not into victimhood either but there are realities of life which effect the performance and the time required to reach excellence in ever human endeavor. Screaming at them "now, today" is not a part of historic reality. A nation is not built on such a time schedule, including the USA - it took us 15 years to get to a Constitution.

I can understand your personal fear which may well be what motivates here. I do not have a child in Iraq but I do have someone I care about. I too check out locations and figure likelihoods.

I am well aware that the budget thing comes up again, but that is the Dhimmicrats, not the Iraqis. And again it feeds into the insecurity that I believe must play against the Iraqi as it surely plays into the certainty of success for Al Qaeda. Both your attitude and that of the Dhimmicrats play into that which prolongs rather than assists this process.

I will put your two loved ones on my prayer list.

[Kate Shanahan]

Right, tom. Sorry you can't see through the haze. Roggio takes the NYT to task for once again working against the troops and the mission. Pelosi and Reid will quote the NYT tomorrow, and ignore Yon and Roggio.

[jordan]

"Study up on counterinsurgency?" Are you daffy? That's all I've been reading for the past two years. Give me a break, hearts and minds. I know winning the trust of the local populace is obtained by securing them, and you undercut that with scorching the earth, for God's sake.

You must be new to this. Look at past threads to see who was counseling education in COIN, patience and encouragement to our often tired but motivated COIN executers. In fact, I wrote something very similar to your post here last year.

What we have here is a brief window -- hopefully of opportunity -- and it won't last forever. Recognizing that is also part of waging a successful counterinsurgency, knowing when to push.

Well, rgrmom, if you can maintain, who am I not to.

[jordan]

Speak of the devil, Bill Roggio's top post, comment#1, links a relevant article to above.

[William hazen]

[Quote]As usual, there is always someone who would rather bury their heads in the sand and do nothing because "it is too hard", "it has always been that way", and "little brown people have been doing it for thousands of years and don't deserve our help stopping it". American lives are not supposed to be used to stop tyranny like this. Just ask Mr. hAZEN. He'd rather all Iraqis die than risk one American life to end a millenium of carnage. So do bin Ladin and al Zawahiri.

Anyone else? Bueller?? Anyone???

Oink, oink, Willie.[/Quote]

Taking my post out of context just like Micheal Yon's blog...Oh well... At least you admit it. Again The Nazi's had the same fervor you display... Absolutely convinced you could make lemonade out of lemons and that thier cause is just. I have stated my reasons a few times and I stand by them. But one more time...Because after all you're Nom De Guerre is "subsunk" There have been dozens of reasons why we should invade/stay... All of them lies...Now you're saying it's because we're fighting for the poor little Iraqis cause they can't fight for themselves. Spoken like a true armchair general. I wll bet you 5 seconds after we pullback and focus on Al Qwacky... The Mahdi Army... The Sunni/Shia Insurgents The Peshmerga and the dozens of other armed factions would snuff Al Qwacky out in a heartbeat. Because Al Qwacky would have no one left to bomb. They are losing thier fight because of the IRAQI resistance to them not JUST us... But no.....Our "little brown brothers" as you refer to them survived Saddam... The Khans... The Ottomans... The Germans... The British... but they can't survive a few foreign Al Qwackys??? It only took us 5 years to figure that one out. And laughably you think with Al Qwacky gone the country will start going to McDonalds and the Sunni tribal chiefs will kotow to the Shia elected officials? That the Sectarian murder rate will drop to nothing... That revenge killings will disappear...and that because "we're the good guys" that all those folks will stop the BS and start playing nice with each other or we'll spank them??? Again I trust the Iraqi's enough to let them sort it out themselves and elminate Al Qwacky. Al Qwacky's worse enemy is itself. Jihadists tried "export" the same terror BS in Saudi Arabia, Algeria, and Egypt (All repressive police states so when Subsunk... do we INVADE THEM???) in the early 90's, and were wiped out to a man by the locals without any Foreign Military Intervention. All staying in Iraq does is FUEL TERRORISM. Every NIE and Intel Agency agrees with that assesment.Iraq is only a failed state because we're keeping it that way. Because we are not prepared to have them elect a Shia Religious Government nor are we prepared to acknowledge that the Sunni, Shia, and Kurds, who lived together by force under Saddam, are prepared to live together without him givin that choice.

William Hazen

[Subsunk]

Folks, Jordan's opinion is a valid one. He has good points and expresses feelings most of us have already. We WISH the Iraqis would step up large and sooner rather than later. Yes, many of them are. But too many of them are wrong and support the propaganda that has been sown in their hearts over the years, many for their entire lives by imams who only want to manipulate them and kill all Jews and infidels because they can then control a large group of people to give them money. They may be ignorant, but it doesn't make them right, and it doesn't mean we have to like it.

It is just the way things are. If we all had our way, we'd insist that Iraqis do exactly what Jordan has said they should do. The fact that they don't in larger numbers is just a fact of Life that our country needs to deal with. When was the last time you were successful in forcing your spouse to do exactly what you wanted when they didn't want to do so? How about your next door neighbor? Now how about the guy down the street who just doesn't like you or your dog?

I don't believe Jordan is wrong, nor JG, nor Rgrmom, nor anyone else who recognizes that we can't MAKE the Iraqis do what we want. Despite what we WISH, they do have the ability to think for themselves and make their own decisions. We just wish they would make them for peace instead of corruption and cowardice.

If the same things that are happening in Iraq were happening in the US, we'd all have a much harder time agreeing to stand up and be counted as well. Let's remember this lesson the next time we have to stand up for ourselves or for the oppressed and wronged in our country and our families. It isn't easy to stand up and be ridiculed by the Left for being "warmongers" and "babykillers" and "evil thugs" when we know that we aren't. Just remember that Wrong is Wrong, no matter who is doing or saying it. And that Evil Men must be opposed no matter how dangerous and desperate the defense must be, because our families' lives are in the balance if we do nothing. It may not happen this year or the next, but Evil has always advanced when good people do nothing to oppose it.

The Marine Corps is not the only civilized group looking for "A Few Good Men and Women". Justice and Peace have their needs for us also.

Answer the call, please. Stand up and be counted. Raise your voice against Evil and the twisting of our words to make a trap for fools. And act as if your children were constantly watching your every move.

Someone's lives depend on it.

Subsunk

[Cincinnati_Bob]

First off - What Arch Said - Posted by: arch | Jul 1, 2007 5:45:40 PM

Second off - What Rgrmom82 said - Posted by: rgrmom82 | Jul 1, 2007 5:53:42 PM

When the civilians can't go to the police or the Iraqi army and be confident they are not murdered themselves..

When half of the political will of the USA can't get behind Americans, and their sons and daughters being killed or worse for a bone-fide enemy giving aid and comfort to that enemy. This is bad times to me. That this happens and a bunch of citizens support those politicians is really bad times leading to worse.

The Democrats have not only befriended the enemy for what they perceive as personal gain, they've removed a needed element of liberalism from the American system.
America needs liberals. These critters ain't them.

[William Hazen]

Yes ol Subsunk is right. He's twisting the words. I again humbly submit this little bog by Ranger Jim. A retired SO Veteran Officer with more than 30 years of real world COIN experiance.http://www.rangeragainstwar.blogspot.com/

In a real debate the reader should be able to make up thier own mind and out of respect for the good folks who post here I invite you to discuss the facts and have an alternative reality based point of view from a Real Deal who has Been There and Done That.

William Hazen

[Cincinnati_Bob]

PS - And of course what Subsunk said anywhere in this thread.

Seriously, what would you do if murder is happening around you and one of your neighbors who you don't know calls on you for the purpose of getting the neighborhood together to fight this thing, or to ask for help. Would you kill him? Could happen. Will happen.

And if you can't trust the police or the army? Seems impossible to me. That they're doing anything is impressive. Maybe like Britain's during Adolph's bombing runs you just stand up to it willing to bet you and your families lives? I don't know; I never had to do anything like that.

[rgrmom82]

I'm just kind of wondering if Tom or Hazen actually looked at the damn photos. How can anybody see those and read what yon has said, clear, concise and unsentimental truth, and NOT know in your heart that the Iraqi men digging up their own countrymen, women and children aren't going to make it their life's mission and that of their sons to eliminate alqaeda from their culture? 30 years from now that Iraqi soldier will be telling his grandson from a safe warm home
the stories of how he and others like him helped
to turn their country from haven for murderers and filth and corruption into one of safety and self-determination.

This is the equivalant of the revolution WE had to have to liberate america from King George. And the crown was not nearly the evil, despicable, conscienceless, scum these killers are. Old George was just a greedy overtaxing, pig. Who cannot want liberty for another country, who has actually studied ours? Did we not have help as well?

If you can see and read that and not pray for those people to succeed and have our help to do so for however long it takes, you need a heart transplant, not to mention a analcephalic correction procedure.

Good Lord...

[Subsunk]

Taking my post out of context just like Micheal Yon's blog...Oh well... At least you admit it. Again The Nazi's had the same fervor you display... Absolutely convinced you could make lemonade out of lemons and that thier cause is just. I have stated my reasons a few times and I stand by them. But one more time...Because after all you're Nom De Guerre is "subsunk" There have been dozens of reasons why we should invade/stay... All of them lies....Now you're saying it's because we're fighting for the poor little Iraqis cause they can't fight for themselves. Spoken like a true armchair general. I wll bet you 5 seconds after we pullback and focus on Al Qwacky... The Mahdi Army... The Sunni/Shia Insurgents The Peshmerga and the dozens of other armed factions would snuff Al Qwacky out in a heartbeat. Because Al Qwacky would have no one left to bomb. They are losing thier fight because of the IRAQI resistance to them not JUST us... But no.....Our "little brown brothers" as you refer to them survived Saddam... The Khans... The Ottomans... The Germans... The British... but they can't survive a few foreign Al Qwackys??? It only took us 5 years to figure that one out. And laughably you think with Al Qwacky gone the country will start going to McDonalds and the Sunni tribal chiefs will kotow to the Shia elected officials? That the Sectarian murder rate will drop to nothing... That revenge killings will disappear...and that because "we're the good guys" that all those folks will stop the BS and start playing nice with each other or we'll spank them??? Again I trust the Iraqi's enough to let them sort it out themselves and elminate Al Qwacky. Al Qwacky's worse enemy is itself. Jihadists tried "export" the same terror BS in Saudi Arabia, Algeria, and Egypt (All repressive police states so when Subsunk... do we INVADE THEM???) in the early 90's, and were wiped out to a man by the locals without any Foreign Military Intervention. All staying in Iraq does is FUEL TERRORISM. Every NIE and Intel Agency agrees with that assesment.Iraq is only a failed state because we're keeping it that way. Because we are not prepared to have them elect a Shia Religious Government nor are we prepared to acknowledge that the Sunni, Shia, and Kurds, who lived together by force under Saddam, are prepared to live together without him givin that choice.

William Hazen

Posted by: William hazen | Jul 1, 2007 8:14:50 PM

And I took you out of context? So now I'm a Nazi? So it is impossible for Iraq to be peaceful until hundreds of thousands more get killed in sectarian violence because American will power just isn't tough enough to attempt to stop the killing in Iraq, but perhaps you think we better damn sure do something about Darfur, eh?

Well, al Qaeda has obviously not been targeting Iraqis themselves or we would see NO carbombings and beheadings, now would we, Willie? And if the Iraqis are SO GOOD at eliminating al Qaeda because they hate them so much and we are just "in the way" of the Shiite's and Sunni's getting to them, then I wonder what all the fuss is about when those little brown people you think are so good at handling their problems through murder and mayhem end up dying in large numbers due to al Qaeda carbombs and death squads? Why would you even care whether it was al Qaeda killing them or the rogue Jaish al Mahdi? Did you even read Mike Yon's posts? Do you think that we are preventing Iraqis from getting rid of them now? Or do you just think they are distracted by the flashy toys and big vehicles we have in Iraq, and that if those things weren't there they would magically find all the al Qaeda members without so much as a "how do you do" just like the Brits know EXACTLY where al Qaeda is in their country and can keep them from loading up vehicles with propane and gasoline to burn up folks leaving an airport or a night club?

Have you ever interacted with any human beings in other countries or are you just totally ignorant of how to exert this magic mind control you think the Mahdi Army can so effectively wield over its people to find and eliminate all the problem children causing all the mayhem in Iraq right now? And why haven't they already done so? Do you think it is American car bombs killing Iraqis? Maybe you also think that American CIA operatives, acting under the nefarious Bush administrations orders blew up the World Trade Centers and killed 3000 American citizens and the hundreds of people required to pull that off can all keep a secret after 6 years? Snap your fingers, Willie, and prove that you can make a whole country behave just by making Americans disappear.

You are either naive or ignorant. Which is it?

Subsunk

PS, regarding the need to invade or overthrow other repressive regimes, I'd have to say I'm storing up and working our way down the list. Give it a little time. They'll all be eliminated one day. Tyrants usually are. Violently.

Out.

[bluliner10]

Well, I have 24 years of experience with COIN and 4th generation warfare, and I disagree with the self-described Ranger against War. So, Mr Hazen, if this guy can give some more bonafides than I can, I would be interested in hearing them.

Before I get to far in debunking him, I will introduce a comment I overheard at the SF Association Far East in October of 06 in Angeles City, Philippines. "3500" Special Forces soldiers served in Vietnam...7000 of them now live in the Philippines. So for a person to make a claim that he was SF, I need a little more than a sentence long verification of service. Now, you attacked Uncle Jimbo, but indeed here on Okinawa there are people who will attest to a MSG James Hanson assigned to 1st of the 1st. So his verification for me is pretty valid...in a personal email to him, I gave a significant number of Army and Navy SOF personnel to contact so that I could verify my claims to him. Whether or not he followed up is his business, but whatever, he is pretty quick to offer area specific information to me.

So, Mr Hazen irregardless of your level of education which you state I must be jealous of because I don't share it...not really, but I didn't want any college education following High School and turned down a few opportunities and yes, even to some of the storied East Coast schools, when I chose instead to carry a rifle and a ruck rather than another bookbag. That standing on a dias with a mortarboard and sheepskin was nothing in comparison to standing on the grinder following 11 weeks of developmental training...that choosing a muddy and snowy mountain top in Korea, a slow moving amphib in the adriatic sea, or the driver seat of an uparmored rig in Iraq was more satisfying in career and life than a 4 X 4 cubicle working for the some civilian business...

I do know Iraq Mr Hazen...and you are wrong...

Semper Fi

[jordan]

Oh well, for once I'm called a Dhimmi instead of a rightwing warmonger. Refreshing.

Bill's commenter's MNF release says 600 people showed up to join the police, and GH says one of the major bad stories this week, the headless bodies, never happened. Progress.

[william Hazen]

I have seen hundreds of pictures....gun camaras...video....you name it. To suggest that I separate these from what I have seen is ludicrious. I have been reading Mike Yon since his novel "Danger Close". I have done as much as I can and have several close friends who still serve.I served myself. My mom had two sons and we Hazen's have been involved since my ancestor Moses Hazen formed a Ranger Company during The French and Indian War in the Mid 1700's! Those are my bonafides and the basis of my opinion.Every Generation on my family has served since before we were a country. I still spend much of my free time helping Vets overcome Drug and Alcohol Addiction as a result of thier service. I was taught well about the obligations of Duty Honor Country so RangerMom with all dues respect My opinions are my own and my heart goes out to those who have suffered through this travsity.

Where I come from, we call a spade a spade, and point out when the emperor has no clothes. Citing liberal media that and Dhimmicrat this only obfuscates the facts and serves only those who dwell in a place where the only thing that matters is their own self importance. Some folks here take the lazy way out by citing tired old memes and pointing the finger at cliches so that folks with a bit of common sense won't see their folly and weak mindedness for what it is.

Criminal.

William Hazen

[rgrmom82]

Way to go Subby, Blueliner....Sometimes I think we write and the visiting nay-bobs are sitting there with their hands over their ears singing the smurf song...lalalalala.

Where's Jihad Gene? Jordan, as long as you know who you are who cares what label somebody tags you with?

[William hazen]

Semper Fi Blue I checked Jim's CV...It's accurate. One of my hobby's is helping to expose posers and trying to help put them in jail (Anyone seen Gary Lakis lately by the way. :) ) so If you don't believe me just ask him yourself.

Subsunk congrats on using the Wrap yourself around the flag meme! Always good to pull out when someone challanges your opinion. LOL

William Hazen

[Cincinnati_Bob]

William Hazen,
So, tell us how media reporting during the wars you have experience with compares with the total non-reporting today.

Tell us how an entire political party fought the Executive Branch from the word go, with no regard for its citizens in harms way, not only giving the enemy aid and comfort but simultaneously offering NO ALTERNATIVE to the current operational strategy.

meme??? PLEASE! Bring tears to the eyes.

[william hazen]

Cincy,

Perhasp they offer me a blog here. Doubt it though Not Kewl enough....

Perhasp later i will expouse on the subject. i have said my piece and I amy check bakc to see if there is a ligimate debate or if some of the folks here are still sniping with thier flamethrowers.

William Hazen

[JG]

Someone once said "timing is everything!"
If that is true, surely it is poor timing to take a Yon post about a WAR CRIME and use it to tear to shreds, not the perps but those that died.

Under such a circumstance, I am not prepared to really discuss the relative merits of a faster response on the the part of the Iraqi national entity or be forced to defend an all inclusive defamation of all Iraqis. This was not the time. It sort of struck me in the same way as those Kansas perverts of Christianity who tried to destroy the funerals of our American heroes. I certainly felt like I was at a funeral - a number of funerals, including those of beheaded children.

The dead that Mike Yon brought to us in his verbally understated yet impassioned pictorial piece, deserved our undivided attention. The dead deserved our solemn respect for this one brief moment in time. So if I took acception to Jordan it was because Jordan could not spare one tear for the dead before figuratively stringing up their lifeless bodies so they could be flayed to death yet again. That, Subsunk, is an EVIL I will speak against everytime, just as I have stood alone, if need be, against many evils over the years. In this case, my sense of propriety says that under some circumstances, if you cannot say something fitting to the occasion, it would be more to the point to say nothing at all.

And now I am outa here!

[Cincinnati_Bob]

William Hazen.

Let's jump to the punch. What's your solution? What is your strategy?

Just for expedience sake, the problem is: Large numbers of religiously sadistically motivated persons, working against free people everywhere using all means possible, from direct violence to political integration to legal protestation, to eliminate free societies and replace them with their own oppressive dictatorships.

Over to you.

[Willaim hazen]

Sorry Cincy about the spelling battery died. Fare Well. :)

William Hazen

[Cincinnati_Bob]

William Hazen. No problemo. I've been there. Come on back.

[MD in Philly]

It seems to me this is pretty simple.
There are animals there who like slaughtering children.
There are those willing to stand up and fight the animals.
There are many innocent children left.

A few threads ago the clear comparison between Tokyo Rose and the MSM, majority of Dems, some repubs was made.

Now we see pictures from Iraq the likes of the first pictures of the liberation of Auschwitz, etc., just on a smaller scale. People tried to ignore rumors then of such horrors, thinking it not possible. People today try to ignore these pictures and say the people of Iraq are not worth fighting for. If those voices win out how long will it be before they will say with Niemoller, "... and when they came for me, there was no one left to help".

There is nothing new under the sun, which is why we should have learned what happens when the wicked are allowed to prosper.

[Ymarsakar]

They'll all be eliminated one day. Tyrants usually are. Violently.

Maybe he's asking cause he wants to know if he has to move to another country, Sub, and perhaps re-invest his options.

Then there's the currency market, which can go haywire and chaotic if a country is invaded. Giving an edge to those in the know.

pointing the finger at cliches so that folks with a bit of common sense won't see their folly and weak mindedness for what it is.

Where I come from, we call a spade a spade, and point out when the emperor has no clothes.

SO you're doing the pointing but it's other people pointing at cliches?

Trained monkeys can do the job of pointing at things and people. Humans need to find something more complex to energize themselves with.

The Peshmerga and the dozens of other armed factions would snuff Al Qwacky out in a heartbeat.

I guess some people are fine with Hamas snuffing out Fatah, but others have more complex goals in mind.

Because Al Qwacky would have no one left to bomb.

Since when did Hizbollah and Hamas ever run out of people to bomb?

AQ's far ahead of them in that field.

Uuuuh.... No one doubts the enemy is evil that is the nature of War.

Right, the nature of war is when your enemy is always evil... I don't think so.

funny... I have heard that somewhere before

Well, ya, you made the nature up after all. You should expect to remember hearing it.

Once again the so called expert here takes this out of context Hubris thinking that Iraqi's are not Sunni or Shia not driven by Tribal Loyalties,or cruelty, or revenge for in some cases hundreds of years of oppression or slaughter but Well heck!!!

You don't even know what drives a moth to flames, let alone what motivates a complex human being in a group dynamic. Just cause people have different conclusions, doesn't mean you're doing a better job at predicting violent motivations.

Let's hope Pretreaus can over come 500 generations of alien cultural values in time....

He certainly has a better chance than you, given that he does not have an incomplete understanding of things.

That said, the Iraqi people ARE doing much without acknowledgement or fanfare and many are dying for their efforts, as soldiers and civilians, both officials and just plain people are cut down for taking a stand or as in this small town for existing.

I think the basic counter-argument to Jordan's first comment is that it is the same reason why Americans can't seal their borders. Politicians. They are not after all, solely an American experience you know.

Comment below written by: tom

Traitors amongst us.. lol Kate, pass me the bong.

Are you hallucinating? You already have 3 of them surrounding you!

That the Sectarian murder rate will drop to nothing... That revenge killings will disappear...and that because "we're the good guys" that all those folks will stop the BS and start playing nice with each other or we'll spank them??? Again I trust the Iraqi's enough to let them sort it out themselves and elminate Al Qwacky.

You trust that people will kill each other because you don't expect anything better from the savages, as your thinking goes. That's a rather cynical and predictable position; one that is not healthy to take in the long run.

Al Qwacky's worse enemy is itself.

In case you hadn't noticed, terrorism thrives on fabricating enemies. Like I said before, where were you when Arafat was the Palestinian's worse enemy? Are you not paying attention to the fact that when there is more killing, the terrorists just grow?

in the early 90's, and were wiped out to a man by the locals without any Foreign Military Intervention.

This sounds like Ralph Peters beliefs that Europe will out fascist the Islamic Fascists by purging the Muslims first. You people have no conception of the actual operational detail problems that can crop up, such as lack of Arab nationalism and professional militaries to do the job. Heck, Saudi Arabia is only around because they bought off AQ and directed them against the Jews and Ameris. Ha, crush them indeed, you expect too little of the Persiand and Arabs, leading you to expect them to do the slaughtering for you. It's convenient, for sure, but not accurate.

All staying in Iraq does is FUEL TERRORISM.

Terrorism fuels itself; it doesn't need you although it helps.

Every NIE and Intel Agency agrees with that assesment.Iraq is only a failed state because we're keeping it that way.

Since when did you join the hive mind Mr Hazen? They give any free coupons for wheaties on initiation?

[Ghost of Habu, The Pit Viper]

The likes of Ernie Pyle and Robert Capa and others who went before them are all watching over Mike Yon, and his work.

And if you listen closely, you can hear their echoes....

"FINALLY! An Equal...."

"The truth is the best picture, the best propaganda." Robert Capa

[Uncle Jefe]

Hopefully, Mr. Yon will not meet the same end as Ernie Pyle.
However, if he does, I hope that they'll make arrangements at the Punch Bowl to put Mr. Yon right next to Mr. Pyle.

[Defendusa]

What's that song... and the freaks come out, the freaks come out at night...Wow...

Michael Yon is doing what the rest of the MSM should be doing. And is the best at it. I love that he tells it the way it is and most of the time, can leave his views at the door for objective reporting. Subsunk is right. If you don't get it now, you never will.

Ymar...nice little smackdown...

[arch]

Just reread Mike's post and what struck me was the irony of al Qaeda posing as holy warriors and committing these crimes against other muslims - innocent men, women and children.

[Ymarsakar]

Truth is the best ally of the good. But if you aren't good, then you definitely have something to hide from folks. The details are rather simple when reduced down to fundamentals. People are motivated by certain things and you can get them to agree to helping you. Good people do it by mutual assent and mutual benefit, evil people exploit, hurt, and torture to get their stuff. So obviously evil people don't want the truth to get out, otherwise all the little people might combine against them and overthrow them for the sheer spite of it. The good want our agreements to get out, because we want others to know of our good deeds, our honor in upholding deals, and the benefits each side may accrue.

While good people try to build something green in the desert, evil makes things a desert and calls it peace.

[Ymarsakar]

If anybody hadn't connected the dots yet, one of evil's favorite tactics is to tell people that they are the angels and that the people helping them are the devils. Makes for great propaganda and convincing people to side with you, while you use intimidation to take hold of their minds and family bonds.

[Ymarsakar]

Hazen would have us believe that everyone does that, except there's only one side that is right in a war, if only because the other side is worse. You can't choose your parents and you also can't choose which sides exist in a war, civil or not.

Hazen might just believe in the multi culti Left indoctrination that because everyone does it, everyone is all right and equal. Why have the US do anything in Iraq, when you can get the Iraqis to do your dirty work? They are just as righteous as the US, all you have to do is listen to them; nature of war and all that!

[jordan]

Interesting. Here we have dead children, and yet I'm evil for saving my tears for tomorrow's American dead.

arch, that horror, I hope, will make those Iraqi soldiers more determined than ever to reach their goal: unity against it despite sectarianism, and a stable, secure country. If I read their faces correctly, the anger to fuel that determination is there.

Still not much coverage on the dramatic reduction in Iraqi civilian casualties since the surge began, only a few news websites. God keep our incredible soldiers safe as they battle the TRUE evil in those pictures.

[Tincan Sailor]

Subsunk,
Damn son you sure opened up a can "O" WHUP-ASS.
Nice to start monday with a grin,thanks again...

[Ymarsakar]

I'm feeling more rage toward the Iraqi population, which can't as a group make a committment, expel their enemy, recognize their allies, and do for themselves what they expect our boys to do.

What people disagree with Jordan, and I'm quoting in order to isolate the argument down to fine print, is that you are displacing your anger over something you feel burnt out about (Jihad) unto the Iraqis, when the Iraqis are the ones suffering under what you feel angry about. This doesn't seem psychologically right to people, and that's why they object to your sentiments, Jordan.

Why can't they stand up and get their country together? What kind of people are these, who stand back and let foreign young men take their country for them.

You ask these questions as if you don't know the answers, yet others like JG have patiently explained why. But those weren't really questions, were they Jordan, they were simply you venting frustration at folks you know can't or won't strike back.

If I were of Iraqi descent, I would be horribly embarrassed by the uselessness of my countrymen.

Now we are dealing with projection. How much do you think you are blaming the Iraqis for having useless countrymen when the ones you really blame are your own countrymen for not making the war shorter by backing the soldiers against AQ and our enemies?

I'm tired of seeing the good young men my sister and I raised sweating it out in 130 degree weather while we see shots of able-bodied Iraqi men standing on street corners. If anything, we have not been judgemental enough, and have coddled and psychologized too much.

When you are tired is when you should be the most alert and disciplined, for that is when mistakes and bad judgments occur.

I know lines and lines of police recruits have been massacred as well as our own troops. But our politicians are turning their sights on cutting off funding AGAIN next week, and they are running out of time.

Again, just who are you displacing your anger on? Which is your true justified target for your anger? The Iraqis you say aren't doing anything or the politicians not doing anything except helping the enemy?

Why? Why don't they have the will to protect and build up their own country?

Training organized military units has never been about will or courage, Jordan, but discipline and teamwork. The bravest barbarian is still only a barbarian warrior, he knows nothing of true teamwork or discipline; the discipline that makes or breaks armies. The Ayrabs are notorious desert dwellers and thus always focused on hit and run caravan attacks and guerrila strikes. Their history has not had much of the systemitized Western tradition of hoplite battle. In military affairs, tradition is a large portion of esprit de corps.

Can decent humans first not tolerate such carnage, get the security situation under control, and then set about the process of governance to hash out what kind of country they want to have -- in peace?

Weak people have no choice but to "tolerate" carnage. True strength is not something easily gathered or created. It takes agreements and various deals and pledges. It was just as hard if not harder to convince the Colonists to side with the Rebels against the Loyalists. Even after the American Revo War, there were loyalists that had to be exiled to Britain and Canada. They still remained loyal to the British crown after the war.

Sorry, but they're the ones up at plate now.

Don't you remember Jordan back in 2004 or 2005 when there were some rumours going around that the Iraqis believed the Americans were too soft on the insurgency? The guy eager to execute the accused child killer is eager to do something, all right Jordan. But you miss the differences. You see Iraqi body postures and see them as inactive in military and police affairs. They see your refusal to conduct summary execution of criminals as your unwillingness to kill and conduct security. The Iraqis are not as active in organized police and military work because they are not organized. Organization, order, Alles in Ordung, the trains run on time, is not part of their tradition, cultural or not. While the Iraqis would do something about Al Qaeda, it would be in terms of clan vengeance. Clan vengeance is not enough, Jordan, it never was for true security. It goes on and off, on and off, all the time, never allowing one or the other to truly provide any stability. This is contrasted with Americans, that are quite orderly (although not as orderly as the Germans), we are quite good at system D and death when death is prolonged in the endless appeals process and government bureacracy and ROE rules for killing folks.

I tried to make the same point about Hazen's remarks. Clan vengeance doesn't do jack about terrorism all in all. It takes systemized and organized military resistance from a real army and police. The Iraqis are actually better at immediate on the spot killings due to their knowledge of the locals and what not, but all knowledge is a double edged weapon. The Americans have the long term stability power to turn instantaneous executions into something that is actually stable and good, but Americans can not actually find the terrorists amongst the Iraqis to deal death to them. And even if they do find them, they will not violate their orders and ROE. This means that while you have the benefit of a system and a bureacracy for civilization, you also have its detriments; its slowness and inflexibility. The Iraqis in Fallujah can find and kill or arrest the terrorists, removing them from attacking civilians, but they don't have the logistics to maintain such a tempo of operations for years or even months. We do.

Why can't you see people for who they truly are, Jordan, and accept both their benefits and detriments? You cannot change the basic fundamental Iraqi character except through a slow process of belief and common ground. If time is running out due to American politicians, then why is that the Iraqi's fault?

They now have their own job to do, and they damn well better be doing it. Now. Today.

Giving orders you know won't be obeyed is useless, Jordan. Repeating those orders is even more useless. The US has not instituted frag orders nor has the President authorized such a thing with an Exec Order. By frag orders I mean "do what I say or I will frag you" translated as meaning American officers and NCOs empowered with the legal power to arbitrarily execute any Iraqi military personnel that does not follow their orders. It is useful, in desperate situations, but without such orders, you're not really going to get the Iraqis to follow your orders just because you are repeating it to them. The funny thing is, that little manual from the WWII days actually referenced Lawrence of Arabia. Lawrence lead from the front did he not? Leading from the front is probably one of the only things that will motivate Iraqis to follow your orders, that and camera shots perhaps.

T E Lawrence gained a first class degree in Modern History from Jesus College, Oxford. He became an archaeologist, travelling all over the Middle East and leading the excavation of Archamish. At the outbreak of World War I he joined the British intelligence service in Cairo and became involved in negotiations and schemes to orchestrate an Arab revolt against the Turkish Empire. Though he was captured and tortured and injured many times, Lawrence was instrumental in Britain's success on the Eastern Front. Dressing in traditional Arab costume, Lawrence led the Arab revolt, distracting the Turkish army by leading his men into the desert whilst the British army was able to descend upon Syria and Palestine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/halloffame/public_life/telawrence.shtml

That's all I've been reading for the past two years. Give me a break, hearts and minds. I know winning the trust of the local populace is obtained by securing them, and you undercut that with scorching the earth, for God's sake.

I think in general it was the first comments that I quoted, from you, that people are in disagreement with, Jordan. They may interpret it differently based upon their individual reading of it, but it is still the first comment.

Do they have any honor, these losers?

that horror, I hope, will make those Iraqi soldiers more determined than ever to reach their goal: unity against it despite sectarianism, and a stable, secure country.

But your first comment said these same folks had no honor, Jordan, so which is it?

[Ymarsakar]

Fix

[Ymarsakar]

fix

[Ymarsakar]

Uh oops as they say?

[William Hazen]

Ymarsaker

A one word reply will do with your "retorts...

BOOOORING.

Lots of false assumptions about my political background, knowledge, and experiance...I understand though when you don't have history and the facts on your side all you're left with is to attack the messenger...

Good Luck bro...Better men than you have all tried and failed....LOL

You are a NO GO at this station Ymarsaker...Proceed to the remedial common sense station to prep for your retest. LOL

Stop wasting my time with what you think of me, and give me a fact based reasoned retort is your new set of TASKS CONDITIONS and STANDARDS

William Hazen

[JG]

JORDAN: "Here we have dead children, and yet I'm evil for saving my tears for tomorrow's American dead".

This statement tells me how pointless it is in trying to reach you. Nevertheless, just for the record it is important to say this. You see, Jordan, most people can feel regard for both. If you are totally unmoved by the beheading of children, there is an impediment in you that words will not assauge. I have wept countless tears for our American lost and yet when I came to the picture in Michael Yon's account yesterday in which it showed the taking out of body bags, I heard myself make an audible moan for it was clear then that the villagers were not in the next village, not alive and not coming back to resume their lives.

I spent a half hour weeping and rocking in the aftermath of viewing all of Michael Yon's pictures, including those that my browser had not initially opened. I knew it was important for me to see each and every one and to experience a full range of the emotions that they invoked. I saved the pictures for future reference because I felt the need to save the evidence of this war crime. Finally, I sent the account to everyone I could think of with the words, "this is something you need to know".

I will not attempt to attribute reasons to your lack of concern over the brutal murder of, at the very least, the children, although some come to mind.

The beautiful faces that are shown in the picture of Michael Yon's exhibit one remain in my mind and are imprinted on my memory. That picture will remain there beside one of many others which immediately comes to mind - that of a handsome, young teen-age boy holding a big white Lop Bunny in his arms. Beside and behind him were some 5-7,000 other men and boys from Srebeniza who were thereafter executed in a mass murder in Bosnia.

Yon's pictures of the exposing of the remains in the graves shows me where the lack of regard for others can lead. I do not believe that you would do something like this, but the people who would, must pass through the same place you stand in terms of indifference to human life.

I will have nothing further to say on this issue.

[Ymarsakar]

A one word reply will do with your "retorts...

BOOOORING.

Typical answer from a typical sub standard human.

[Ymarsakar]

Oh btw, if you get any more fired up over boring stuff, your blood pressure will go way too sky high man.

[Whazen]

Actually ymarsakar. Laughter is the best medicine and you got me LMFAO! "Sub-Human" what can I say other than WOW... More Nazi verbiage. LOL

Like I said better "Real Men" than you have tried and failed.

William Hazen

I know I know for you to make a reasoned fact based argument is way too much of me to ask. At least you have a tiny shot with the grade school level insults. the rest of us have moved on. LOL

God Bless and I will be back soon. :) To debate with Cincy and the other Real Men here. :)

Willaim Hazen

[Cincinnati_Bob]

Arch - "Just reread Mike's post and what struck me was the irony of al Qaeda posing as holy warriors and committing these crimes against other muslims - innocent men, women and children"

- Oghhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, or maybe I should say F'n A.

How can you kill a child ? A child who has not had a chance to even decide to become a devout muslim ? Not to say anything less about the adults. That's just animalistic sadistic murderous drooling mob mentality. Nothing more. Nothing shiny here from any angle.

[Cincinnati_Bob]

William Hazen.

Flattery will get you no where. I see you avoided my query regarding your solution thus far.

[jordan]

Ymar, you know better. Fragging? Executing Iraqi military officers?

JG, in the coherent parts I see the psychologist. However, you are seeing things that aren't there. I have a four year record of comments here that belie your flights of fancy and psychologizing on the dark meanings, and motivations behind my words. I kneel at the alter of your noble half hour of weeping and rocking, but aren't you being a bit judgemental?

So personal slander is not necessary, and neither is your noble, pious lecture on the horror of killing. The people that need your preaching are mostly in a region far away, where our best and brightest are trying to persuade them not to kill, and protect the innocent ones from the predators.

This afternoon, Michael Yon called into a radio show from Iraq. He said that the terrorist "grip on Baquba has been broken". He said the people had been put through a nightmare, but now were slowly coming around. He talked about the photos of the children, in direct, austere terms that were vivid and without hyperbole, bearing witness.

Thank you, Michael.

[Ymarsakar]

Ymar, you know better. Fragging? Executing Iraqi military officers?

It's actually one of the reasons why the Iraqis keep passing these Saddam Laws that you dislike, Jordan. You know, the ones that protect corrupt bureacrats and pals. They see American legal tradition and detainment procedures as hesitation. Hesitation to do what is necessary, so if Americans won't do what is necessary and bumps stuff up the chain of command because they operate under the laws and orders given to them by their superiors, why can't Iraqis do the same for their buddies in government, they think. I can easily imagine them thinking that way given our example, if they don't understand why law and order are important; why civilization is important.

While the Iraqis have their own Arab traditions and pride, they have been influenced by US actions (whether strong or weak) more than they will admit. They aren't operating in a vacuum and shouldn't be treated as if they are. Solving their problems isn't simply a local matter or even a local matter combined with American forces. There's the US politicians to consider, Iraqi politicians, Iranian agents, Syrian agents, Sadr boyos, and a lot of them seem to actually be in the government.

Iraqi politicians are almost doing a mirror dance with US Dems; see people undermining their own country, copy the behavior and do the same in Iraq, voila.

In the final analysis, jordan, if Iraqi corruption (whether political or military based) isn't worth any lives to solve, then why is it worth it for the Iraqis to solve it in order to make you feel better about US contributions on the ground? Why is this better?

Your first comment still stands, jordan. Who are these dishonorable wretches that aren't pulling their weight? I assume you aren't going to retract those sentiments, so why not increase their accuracy; politicians, generals, officers, who do you blame for having a lack of initiative?

Threats of executions would give them such initiative, if only for a short time and cause destabilization problems in the short term as well. You don't like execution, and the US doesn't like to arrest corrupt Iraqis except for some General LTC Crissman nabbed. But that still leaves legions of bureacrats and politicians, safe and secure from American reach. It doesn't seem feasible that people can expect the iraqis to truly pull it together if they don't get rid of the Iraqi internal blockages. There are plenty of blockages and obstacles in Iraq, that create the problems that you dislike, Jordan. Plenty of targets. What you wish to do with them, however, remains a mystery to me.

Laughter is the best medicine and you got me LMFAO!-Haz

I know lying is a great way to cover up for your faults, but you got to find more naive targets. Seriously.

[Beth* A.]

Whazen says:

'"Sub-Human" what can I say other than WOW... More Nazi verbiage. LOL'

BZZZZZZZZT! First one to reach for Godwin's Law - Aw, Wh, sooooo sorry but you've jumped the shark now.... thanks for playing....you'll receive some lovely parting gifts.

LOL indeed

[jordan]

What I like or dislike has nothing to do with it. The goal is for our forces to have the best possible chance of coming home alive. Does saying that mean it's not worth the sacrifice? Of course not. It means I want want them to come home alive. Does pushing the Iraqis to take over mean I think they should all die, and don't care about them? No. It's just advocating that they step that up, with a reminder that our support for Iraq has been tireless, informed, and patient for a long, long time, and we've relentlessly supported our family members who volunteered, with our backup, to go over there to help the Iraqis. Does offering our "boys" up to the cause mean I don't care about the poor Iraqi children? No. It means I care enough to support and applaud their decisions to go there.

But again, it's not about me. Soldier's Mom put up a letter on Milblogs from a General in Iraq describing how the IA and U.S. are working together -- it is cautiously optimistic, and does give reason to hope.

I don't know what the Saddam Laws that you're talking about that I dislike are. Maybe that came from somebody else.

[Ymarsakar]

I was referencing Mr Wolf's link to a Fox News Colonel, in which the Colonel objected to Maliki's government coming up with laws that mandate the approval of a superior before arresting the subordinate on corruption charges.

[JG]

Boring perhaps
Slander- I see none, but then...

What can you expect from a substandard human, I might ask?

[Ymarsakar]

Who are you calling a sub standard human, JG?