Apache Pilots Rescue Wounded Soldier, Kill insurgents

Posted By Blackfive

Apache pilots evacuate critically-wounded Soldier, kill several extremists in Ramadi firefight
Staff Sgt. Lorin T. Smith
36th Combat Aviation Brigade Public Affairs Office

LSA ANACONDA, Iraq – Apache pilots from Company B, 1st Battalion, 149th Aviation Regiment (Attack), 36th Combat Aviation Brigade and Company A, 2nd Battalion, 159th Aviation Regiment, 12th Combat Aviation Brigade, engaged extremists and saved a critically-wounded Soldier’s life during a firefight in Ar Ramadi, Iraq, on June 30, 2007.

Two attack weapons teams (with two AH-64 helicopters making up a team) flew to Ramadi in support of Coalition Forces in search of insurgents and weapons caches.

The teams reached Ramadi and received notice that Coalition Forces were taking heavy small arms fire. To maximize the helicopters’ time over a potential target, one team immediately went to the Ramadi forward arming and refueling point and the other attack weapons team flew into the fight.

They engaged extremists with 30 millimeter cannon fire neutralizing them. The team then supported other Coalition Forces engaging extremists using two tractor trailers as cover.  The crew took small arms fire and multiple enemy rounds to their aircraft.

Despite the small arms fire, the attack weapons team destroyed the tractor trailers, causing secondary explosions, indicating to the crew that the trailers were possibly used as vehicle-born improvised explosive devices.

The crew stayed on station with the Coalition Forces until fuel levels became low, and returned to the FARP to refuel. Due to battle damage sustained, the Apache team performed a battle handoff to the second  attack weapons team and flew back to LSA Anaconda.

The second team entered the engagement area in Ramadi. Coalition Forces were still taking heavy enemy fire. The attack weapons team shot hundreds of cannon rounds and rockets, expending their ammunition. As the team returned to the FARP to rearm and refuel, the ground forces commander informed the crews that he was coordinating a medical evacuation of wounded Soldiers including one critically-wounded.

Approximately 40 minutes later, after rearming and refueling, the team went back to the area and learned that the MEDEVAC aircraft had not arrived. Due to the critically-wounded Soldier and despite continued enemy activity, the Company B aviators landed and extracted the critically-wounded casualty with the Apache helicopter. While the Company A crew provided overhead security, the Company B crew landed within two kilometers of the enemy position.

Upon landing, the co-pilot/gunner helped load the injured Soldier into the front seat without further injury. Despite the heavy small arms fire and surface-to-air fire events in the area, the co-pilot/gunner strapped himself onto the left side of the aircraft and hunkered down on the wing. The pilot flew to Camp Ar Ramadi medical pad, where emergency medical personnel provided treatment. The team went back to the fight and continued to provide support for Coalition Forces. Upon neutralizing the extremists, the crew returned to LSA Anaconda.

Due to the extent of the battle damage, one extremists was confirmed killed in action, but multiple extremists were killed in conjunction with ground forces. The wounded Soldier has been transferred to LSA Anaconda and is in stable condition.

Chief Warrant Officer 2 Allen Crist and Chief Warrant Officer 4 Kevin Purtee, Company B, 1st Battalion, 149th Aviation Regiment (Attack), 36th Combat Aviation Brigade, checks on the medical condition of Spc. Jeffrey Jamaleldine, Company C, 1st Battalion, 77th Armor, after an unusual Casualty Evacuation (CASEVAC) in Ar Ramadi, Iraq, on June 30, 2007. (U.S. Army photos by Maj. Gregory T. O’Connor)

Update 07-03-07:  The DoD sent this video of the rescue which I posted here.

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Comments

[moe]

I pray to God every night to watch over these heroes and I also thank Him numerous times duing the day because we have such wonderful, dedicated and courageous people serving in our military. And my thanks also goes out to Blackfive and all the other blogs that keep us up to date on what is happening. A large pox on the MSM.

[Bill F.]

Being courageous requires, first the opportunity to do so, second the decision to be so.
You are courageous Chief Warrant Officer 2 Allen Crist, Chief Warrant Officer 4 Kevin Purtee, and Spc. Jeffrey Jamaleldine.

Thank you, God Bless

[HM2 Pell]

Bold move, for a moment I thought I was reading about Marine Corps air. I would proudly have this air crew with me in combat anytime.

[Jim C]

Wow, what a brave and bold move. Rather unorthodox as well I would assume. The copilot/gunner who strapped himself on the wing with enemy fire in the area had BIG brass ones! Once again, where do we find such men?

Jim C

[MrSparkle]

The chair force takes the credit again! (which is reader's fault not theirs). The people in real danger and with real courage should take the credit instead of the 100mph armoured sky heroes who kill their enemy from miles away? Whoopee do.

Bravery > Technology

[jordan]

He "strapped himself onto the left side of the aircraft and hunkered down on the wing"????? Oh, my God. Why watch Die Hard IV when there's real life stuff going on.

Doesn't sound like technology to me, sounds like courageously adapting to constantly changing mission requirements. A rope, a wing, and will. That's really high-tech.

BZ, sky heroes. (I'm assuming he got an indoor seat for the ride back to the fight.)

[Slabsides]

Mr Sparkle is definitely the authority on the true nature of bravery and courage isn't he? You know, Mr. Sparkle, the US Military is all volunteer.. care to sign up and show us what real courage is? Instead of running your stupid mouth?

[Swede]

MrSpunkle wouldn't recognize heroism if it moved in next door to him, stole his wife, threw a wild party, didn't invite him, and burned donuts on his lawn.

Technology is a tool.

Just like you.

[bthun]

Thanks to Matt, UJ, Sub, Grim, M. Yon and so many others in the Milblog community I now know that the words of another sailor, from another time, are as appropriate today for our men and women as they were when Admiral Chester Nimitz first spoke them. If I might paraphrase,
”Among the Americans who served... uncommon valor was a common virtue".

May God bless our young men and women in harms way.

[Frank Keough]

Holy Shit ! Where DO we get guys like this ? Bravery just seems to be second-nature. Just wait until they get home and see what the Social-Democrats, liberals and 'progressives' have been doing beihind their back ! I'm proud that these guys are doing all this on our behalf.

[Pops]

Mr. Sparkle,
I have veen cautioned about responding to Sperm like you, but I really would like to meet you some day, bring ole SteveH with you.

[ALLTHEWAY]

HM2 Pell,with all due respect sir I take a little offense to your statement " for a moment I thought I was reading about Marine Corps air"
I realize that perhaps you are under the impression that only Marines are capable of exhibiting bravery but, please take note,while the MARINES may have conquered Islands ... with the help of the U.S ARMY ,THE ARMY CONQUERED CONTINENTS WITHOUT ANY ASSISTANCE FROM THE corps!

[TBinSTL]

Crist and Purtee are really familiar sounding names. I've searched but can't find anything. Have these two been in the news before? Uncommon valor is once again a common virtue but serial heroics is a helluva thing!

[Mel's Mom]

Prayers for Spc. Jeffrey Jamaleldine. As for his fellow soldiers--"Go get 'em boys!" There are still plenty of us behind you!

[Outlaw13]

What a shock to see my roommate from flight school, CW4 Purtee on Blackfive...it doesn't surprise me at all that he would be involved in something like this...Kevin is a great guy.

Mister Sparkle...they are not in the "chairforce", they are ARMY aviators...you need to educate yourself...about several things before you decide to open your pie hole.

[mindy abraham]

The more I read about guys like them, the more I realise they are braver than any movie character out there.:)

[MaryAnn]

Thanks for another amazing story about our brave guys, Matt. Man, where do we get 'em is right.

Happy to see Spc. Jamaleldine looking so good and wishing him all the best for a speedy recovery.

[anonymous grunt]

i was there and i was was very surprised to hear that they were evacing a casualty in an apache. thanks guys. you definitely saved his life. it takes about 45 minutes to get there on the ground...he wouldn't have made it. you guys are awesome.

[songdongnigh]

That‘s way beyond mere pucker factor.

Here's another feat of daring-do from the 36th when four, count 'em, four DSC's were awarded to Apache pilots for an action in May.

Time for two more DSCs?

Here's an excerpt from Army National Guard news:

"The Marines were obviously in the middle of it and pretty nervous," Chief Moore said. "Since we were able to talk to them, we could relay the situation to their command post, which was finally able to dispatch a patrol to get out there and establish a relay station for them -- providing additional support."

Read about it here:
http://www.arng.army.mil/Lists/NewsItems/DispForm.aspx?ID=1823

[warvet48]

Mr sparkle just shut yer yap! Your comments are uncalled for. There is much bravery in how these fine men handled themselves. Think you could do the same??? I have my doubts.

[warvet48]

Pops, Been a long time since I heard from you on these boards. I just wanted to offer my utmost respect to you and your family, especially Marcus and the ordeal he has gone through. Your are a great american family. Also if Mr spurkle and steveH want to stop by, let me know, I'll be happy to vist them with you. HAHA

[jordan]

Frank, I hope some of those political changes they're trying to make can be prevented so that returning troops don't have to confront them. Maybe it hasn't been too successful yet, but it might help turn to the last lines of the soldier's Christmas poem:

"Just tell us you love us, and never forget

To fight for our rights back home while we're gone,
To stand your own watch, no matter how long.

For when we come home, either standing or dead
To know you remember, we fought and we bled
Is payment enough and with that we will trust
That we mattered to you as your mattered to us."

[LberalNightmare]

"Despite the heavy small arms fire and surface-to-air fire events in the area, the co-pilot/gunner strapped himself onto the left side of the aircraft and hunkered down on the wing. "

This guy clanks when he walks.

[Blackhawk]

Well done (hoist glass).

Well done, indeed, to all the aircrews involved.

[steveH]

Pops;

"Mr. Sparkle,
I have veen cautioned about responding to Sperm like you, but I really would like to meet you some day, bring ole SteveH with you."

Huh? Did I miss something? (Ditto for the other invocation of my nick above.)

It's not like I'd be in agreement with much of anything "Mr. Sparkle" has ever posted here, after all.

[MrSparkle]

Hmm, if they are fighting from a chair? I'm not saying they are not brave people, but the ability to show courage is different, that of a limited nature to men on the ground.

On virtue of their great tools on the other hand they can inevitably earn more credit than I think they should.

Had the enemy an adequate supply of anti-air then (apart perhaps from Napoleon's number one virtue of a soldier - the ability to withstand fatigue!) then their real credit would surely rise.

Pops, dare I say despite everybody apparently loving you, you may build a reputation of intimidation? Too, am I going to fly to the United States to visit someone who wants to duel in order to settle 'something'? Implausible as it is nuts.

[Ymarsakar]

Bravery > Technology

Posted by: MrSparkle | Jul 2, 2007 1:29:41 PM

You really know how to make friends Sparkie. Maybe you should be in charge of American Iraqi combined force operations. That'll really show folks.

[Blackfive]

Mr. Sparkle - you don't know when to quit, do you?

Those of us here who either have been rescued/evac'd/medevac'd etc (or know someone who has), know better.

BTW, it doesn't take much to knock a helicopter down. "Anti-Air" is certainly not needed to shoot one down. I don't know how many examples you need to get that through your thick skull. Start with Google. It's easy.

Let's just say that if you ever bad mouth the pilots (20th SOW or the 160th SOAR, especially) around me, prepare to be knocked to the ground.

[MrSparkle]

Blackfive: Need it be said I was talking about Apaches?

I'm not trying to be controversial, all I am saying is that I see the attack helicopters and fighter pilots often taking the limelight because of their nice toys. Nothing more.

Ymar, I don't know, what do the Yankee brass think about clearing rooms with sabres? Perhaps we could reform the Fedayeen (as real "Freedom Fighters")! They were pretty gutsy (or perhaps berserk).

[D-lo]

Rivalry between branches, healthy. Envy, not so much. Sounds like Sparkly guy regrets his choice when he choose to serve. 15Y, yea it aint as good as flying them but I can keep that spear effing sharp for those who do.

[Ymarsakar]

Start with Google. It's easy.

Did you run out of cookies, Matt?

Need it be said I was talking about Apaches?

By your logic, your comments would also apply to the LT that once blogged at ARMOR GEDDON. Oo, shiny armor, this must mean that their source of strength comes from somewhere other than the source of bravery that infantry show. You got two problems, Spark. Logic and wisdom; meaning lack of them, not enough of them.

Ymar, I don't know, what do the Yankee brass think about clearing rooms with sabres?

I think they think war isn't a game. They also have higher standards than the Fedayeen and you combined.

They were pretty gutsy (or perhaps berserk).

Obviously better than American attack helicopter pilots in your view. I would love to hear your views on Predator UAV pilots sitting in comfy chairs in the back bases. Maybe you can't insult every pilot, but might as well grab as many as you can, eh?

[jordan]

Mr. Sparkle, they weren't fighting from their chairs. The guy was hanging off the wing outside the helicopter. Not exactly a Barclay lounger, unless you're Chuck Norris.

CNN International just ran some pretty clear video of him hanging off the helicopter.

[Ymarsakar]

In general, I realize it is hard for Europeans to somehow see past their government and media inspired propaganda concerning how the source of American power and strength is our technological advantage, but that's no excuse really.

Fear both paralyzes higher level thinking and physical ability, therefore the strength of will that is required to resist fear is no different for pilots engaged in 3 dimensional flight calculations or for the infantry that must maintain physical speed and coordination in the face of enemy fire.

Anybody remember that 11 minute dogfight CDR Salamander posted up on his blog? If every European saw that and kept seeing that for America, they would soon stop talking about technology making Americans less brave.

The media uses the bravery > technology propaganda line to incite anti-American feeling and sentiment. It is far easier to despise a people if they are seen as weak or somehow using their tech as a crutch for inner weakness.

[MrSparkle]

D-lo, do you think it's envy and regret but not disappointment?

[Ymarsakar]

The people in real danger and with real courage should take the credit instead of the 100mph armoured sky heroes who kill their enemy from miles away?

Btw, just so you know, you can also insult Marine Corps, Army, and National Guard snipers with that, if you choose to. Just an option.

[Blackfive]

Just put the video up in a new post...

[MrSparkle]

Ymar, as usual you suffer over analysis of simplistic and, just on the odd occasion, 'humoristic' commentary...

For your overly logical mind Ymar: True "bravery" requires fear by most definitions, yes. Obviously this chap was rather heroic getting out of his helicopter and sitting on the wing (Jordan!) good show. But when there is little real resistance to the absolutely astonishing killing tool there is less fear of death no? Less room to show a variable level of courage?

When I value a soldier philosophically (not technically - for pilots today are technicians more than soldiers) I value bravery as a greater virtue. Your rant is against a non-existent enemy. Did I really despise Americans, or American pilots? Harsh criticism of some tools perhaps, but er we use them too.

[MrSparkle]

On Snipers, "God is on the side not of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots." — Voltaire

Ymar if I did make an incendiary comment about snipers being the original(!) dirty dogs of war I certainly wouldn't have been the first!

[jordan]

Sparkle, they just interviewed the two flying aces on the news, and they said they were under fire the whole time, and the fuselage was being hit.

[steveH]

Mr Sparkle;

"I'm not trying to be controversial, all I am saying is that I see the attack helicopters and fighter pilots often taking the limelight because of their nice toys. Nothing more."

If that is how you see things, you are utterly blind and ignorant.

That's not a permanent state, but you'd have to do some homework to fix your problem.

[MrSparkle]

Wow this is turning into my typical session of back pedalling and accommodation. steveH, I am actually utterly blind and ignorant. I think that admission actually solves a lot of problems.

Jordan, now they qualify for one of my bravery medals (In choice of four colours). Honestly I was just continuing my Luddite rant (well spotted D-lo) against those airborne bringers of death! Ymar hasn't yet concluded that I am actually a terrorist trying to give the Jihadists a moment of rest through my campaign of internet propaganda (located at my doctors surgery in Londistan), but I fear it is not long before his "Young Sherlock Holmes"-like inquisitive mind unravels it all and inverts my psychological self-loathing innards to be eaten away.

[Ymarsakar]

Jordan, now they qualify for one of my bravery medals (In choice of four colours).

I'm sure Matt would feel very honored to receive their medals from you, Spark.

[Pops]

SteveH,
I see what you mean in regards to Sparkle
You Guys come on different Days!
Sparkie. you're not from around here are you!
Sparkie, I'm thinkin the Super Dome, How about you?
Pops

[Ymarsakar]

But when there is little real resistance to the absolutely astonishing killing tool there is less fear of death no? Less room to show a variable level of courage?

True courage is not limited to the fear of death; it includes the fear of failure, the fear of letting your loved ones down, the fear of allowing people to die that would not have had you been better. In large battles, panic can indeed occur due to the fear of death, but that isn't really the primary cause. Most panics occur due not to people failing to resist the fear of death, but because people don't know what to do. A person can fight or flight, as his instincts tell him to. However, if he feels helpless or does not know what to do or does not trust his side to know how to win, then true panic sets in.

It has already been shown historically, Spark, that the most effective resource of an army is discipline, not courage. For while an army may lack courage, they could still function so long as discipline was maintained. The reverse is not true, and we know this to be true for barbarian hordes have always been courageous to a T, taking risks no Roman soldier would have. Yet their lack of discipline made them far easier to rout and break than a professional and disciplined Roman Legion. The same actually applies to guerrila forces, courageous to take on overwhelming forces while outnumbered, but unable to truly hold the line of battle due to their lack of training. Lack of training is not the same as lack of courage, and you belittle the abilities of those Apache pilots, Spark, when you opine that they are only worthy if they have courage.

Individual courage has its limits, as all human and mortal beings do. Putting it on a pedestal and worshipping it, as you do Spark, rather misses the entire point of human existence.

Did I really despise Americans, or American pilots?

I simply pointed out that the British culture has certain stereotypical things to say about Americans; meaning this might inform your views to a certain extent and be the cause of why you talk about technology in relation to Americans.

(not technically - for pilots today are technicians more than soldiers)

Everyone has already given you as many clues as humanely possible, I think. If you keep wanting to talk about pilots as being technicians and so forth in that vein, go right ahead Spark.

[Acad Ronin]

Bravo Zulu to CWO2 Crist and CWO4 Purtee.

[rgrmom82]

Man oh man...I can't believe how much guts that took...

Blackhawk had it right (glasses in the air folks)

"To your courage and your mission"

Spackle, you really are tiresome...

[steveH]

Pops;

"SteveH,
I see what you mean in regards to Sparkle
You Guys come on different Days!"

Different hemispheres for that matter, as far as I can tell.

I'm still wondering how I got pulled into this in the first place...

[MrSparkle]

SteveH: "I'm still wondering how I got pulled into this in the first place..."

Most likely there were some trolls pretending to be you (as well as a few other people) a short while back, making offensive comments etc.

[MrSparkle]

I would not go as far as to say I worship bravery Ymar. There's a place for them both (being English it's hard not to appreciate discipline). I was really not intending to be rude to chair people. However, when their job inevitably transitions to flying vehicles from a truck outside Fort Bragg (or such) we can have the debate again.

[Uncle Sam]

As you all sit back and stuff your faces with barbeque today give pause for a few minutes and say a prayer for the brave men and women of the armed forces who are fighting animals that would not allow us to celebrate the birthday of AMERICA. GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS AND A VERY HAPPY JULY 4TH TO YOU ALL. MAY GOD HOLD YOU IN THE PALM OF HIS HAND.

[stlzoom]

If you guys really want to fight back and forth about this you should exchange phone numbers/email addresses or set up a seperate post. For those of you who want to say these guys did this to get honor or recognition you're out of your minds. CWO Crist is my brother. First of all I'm damn proud of him for going into the service in the first place. He didn't go to be part of the war he went to protect everyone's rights... even the ones who choose to use them by shooting off their mouths about things of which they have no knowledge. Try reading some of the reports. Both my brother and CWO Purtee have said the grounds soldiers are their heroes. They didn't do this because they would get recognition in fact they'd rather not be fussed over. They did this because they were there and a fellow soldier needed help. Even if it wasn't my brother that did this I'd be proud. Oh and for Sparkle there is a reason you have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Try listening and looking twice before you run your mouth. You seemed to have forgotten that soldiers are humans with family, friends, and a life.

[SPC Jamaleldine]

Thank you for everybodies support. I am in Landstuhl Germany right now with my family. The first surgeries were pretty successful I have another one on monday. since i got shot in the face i have no feelings on the left side of my face but the Dr said I may recover them over time. I can't complain since if it wasn't Chief Warrant Officer 2 Allen Crist and Chief Warrant Officer 4 Kevin Purtee I would not be here at all.

[MrSparkle]

I think this post needs to be bumped seeing as we now have such prestigious guests.

Hi stlzoom. As you are related I may have caused offence, so let me clarify what I said. First I don't think anybody was so absurd to say they did it for recognition. Second you should be *extremely* proud of your brother. In fact if you look at what I said I was not criticising the aircrews at all, just the fact they get too much love!

Jeffrey, all I can say is well done mate.

[SPC Jamaleldine]

I can only speak for myself but how can you ever give enough credit to the Aircrew that saved my life. We were 19 Deltas pinned down on the shoreline with no where to go until the Apache Helicopters and their guns bailed us out. So that should speak for itself who should get the credits here

[jordan]

They're getting "too much love"? Why would an idea like this occur to anyone, unless they resent the attention and praise being given to our intrepid warfighters?

There's no way we can repay these people. They're shouldering burdens that would crush 90% percent of us. Just look at the things they do over there -- civvies wouldn't believe it without the video.

Sometimes you resent someone that you know you can't live without. You want to be able to deride them, but benefit from the freedoms they provide at the same time, like a rebellious teenager toward his parents. That rankles.

Mr. Sparkle may have a longer history to work with, considering that WWI and WWII were fought and won by the American fighting man. (I know many allies were involved and fought alongside them, but let's not pretend for egalitarianism's sake that all played an equal part. It was the U.S. GI that spelled the difference -- let's give credit where credit is due.)

It's not until crisis hits, Sparkle, that suddenly the reason for praising bravery becomes starkly clear. It just may not figure too highly on our radars as we sit in comfort and security during peacetime. That degree of will, capability and fortitude is RARE in today's world. Where you find it, you treasure it.

SPC Jamaleldine, our children will be taught about the history you and your compatriots are writing, and will respect and admire it.

[MrSparkle]

Hello Jordan, first thing first there is a simple reason why you would believe the US G.I. won WW1 and WW2, unfortunately it is not research but Hollywood movies. I'm sorry I have to derail this but that comment is so absurd and extremely rude.

WW1 casualties
WW2 casualties

WW1 is obvious.

However WW2: you notice that the US had more military casualties than the UK (24,700 less than 407,300 total US mil casualties).

Please note however that the US had a population of 131 million whereas we had a population of c.48 million. Close to a third of your size.

Please note that if you factored in civilian casualties and viewed it proportionally, then we actually had three times the sacrifice of lives.

This is ignoring the British empire and our commonwealth.

You continue to spread an image of American "exceptionalism" and arrogance when you propagate these remarks about US supremacy.

My resentment was *only* towards the SLANT (not the QUANTITY) of praise pilots/support get instead of soldiers.

(I apologise if there are any errors in the numbers however, you just have to look at the allied soviet casualties to know how lightly we got off)

[MrSparkle]

Additionally: this case is different because of the heroic actions of the aircrew, good show to them, my comments were really directed to the occasions when an Apache turns up at 100mph, shoots some people dead using their super cool badass guns but then gets all the credit instead of the bad ass super cool dudes on the ground who were fighting blade to blade.

[jordan]

Yes, I do realize the Allies got off lightly compared to the Russians.

You're extrapolating too far to assume that limited point about the wars means I believe in American Supremacy. It only means that U.S. involvement was critical in those wars. Look only at what I actually said, not what you think I meant.

Assuming Hollywood had anything to do with it is also a mistake. Try the accounts of one of the luminaries of your great history, Winston Churchill, who understood the U.S. had to get into the war if they were to survive, beyond the naval assistance the U.S. was already giving to British shipping in the North Atlantic.

[MrSparkle]

Your involvement was critical. No argument. What I did not like is how you treat my grandfathers, as though they were saved by the Yanks, well we got bloodied worse than you mate. Thank god Americans were there and came, but you should also be thankful you had friends over here who were ready to fight and die stopping the fascists whilst Congress sat about debating, and had to be forced into self-defence by the Japanese.

Now, lets be friends!

[bthun]

Sheesh...

Topic:Apache Pilots Rescue Wounded Soldier, Kill insurgents

SPC Jamaleldine, stlzoom, CWO Crist, & CWO Purtee please accept a BZ and a salute from this old fellow.

Sparkle, in a thread that B5 posts to honor the courage of people, try just saying Thanks, or say hot damned, I doubt I'd have the courage to act as well under fire, and then say Thanks or say nothing as in STFU.

I don't understand why you continue to try to piss people off, you seem smarter than that and you say you're considering joining the military. If so and if you have a sincere desire to serve, then please learn to say something positive in support of people who put it all on the line, or be quiet. It's really just that simple.

Regarding casualty numbers, as the man said, the point is not to die for your country (adding as it does to the casualties and reducing strength and unit effectiveness), the point is to make the other SOB die for his.

United States warriors take that advice to heart and excel at it...

[Ymarsakar]

I think this post needs to be bumped seeing as we now have such prestigious guests.

In case you hadn't noticed, blackfive almost always has readers that are part of the story, part of the family members of the people in the story, and even the people in the story themselves. Often times they email Matt instead of commenting here, and it doesn't take true perception of humanity to realize this.

Hollywood movies

Wake Island was a Hollywood movie. The reality was harsher and more valorous.

I'm sorry I have to derail this but that comment is so absurd and extremely rude.

You certainly have guts, Spark, to talk about rude and absurd comments from someone else, given your record here. That's something at least.

Please note that if you factored in civilian casualties and viewed it proportionally, then we actually had three times the sacrifice of lives.

Only fanatics and Stalin communists rank contribution in war by how many died.

You continue to spread an image of American "exceptionalism" and arrogance when you propagate these remarks about US supremacy.

Like I told you before, Spark.

Did I really despise Americans, or American pilots?-Spark

I simply pointed out that the British culture has certain stereotypical things to say about Americans; meaning this might inform your views to a certain extent and be the cause of why you talk about technology in relation to Americans.

My resentment was *only* towards the SLANT (not the QUANTITY) of praise pilots/support get instead of soldiers.

The fact that you would resent anyone because you didn't get what you want in terms of praise, speaks for itself. This isn't about you, it is about people accomplishing good things. The fact that you wish to make it about you, is what is unbalanced.

who were fighting blade to blade.

You been reading too much Dune or something?

What I did not like is how you treat my grandfathers, as though they were saved by the Yanks, well we got bloodied worse than you mate.

This ain't about your grandfathers, this is about you and how you feel entitled to stuff you can't back up. Or did you think your resentment came because Matt or anyone else here had actually done something wrong? They didn't, but you did.

[MrSparkle]

When you split and start to (attempt to)"Fisk" your overall message is lost to an overwrought answer Ymarsakar, which is not worth replying to in point. Just speak plain, man.

You think I am rude bthun, ymar? Perhaps I am a little - I apologise but continue for the sake of being heard, in this case I was responding in kind to rudeness, and one in which Ymar, you clearly agree with.

Ymar, the sacrifice in lives relay a component of cost in war. A component Jordan was desperately failing to address (along with any other numbers). If you want to argue against me (I hope only as the devil's advocate) please explain to me what rank insignificance my tiny country had to winning WW1 and WW2, and how, lets be fair here, the US G.I. won both wars (I assume single handily, whilst destroying the British empire, snitching all our markets and becoming a world superpower in the process! - bravo). Oh sh*t little country syndrome!

[jordan]

Point taken, Mr.Sparkle. I acknowledged the Allied involvement., with the U.S. most likely being the pivotal force. But it's galling to be bombarded by virulent, insulting, and gratuitous anti-Americanism, especially from Europe, until there's a crisis that they want the U.S. military to "fix".

The point was that when all is secure and quiet, soldiers who do the "rough" defending can be derided and scoffed at as the "bringers of death" as you put it. Then, when suddenly fortunes change, the international community demands that the U.S. military "do something", whether the problem is in Indonesia, Haiti, or the Horn of Africa.

Sarkozy is trying to rehabilitate U.S.-France relations, I suspect, because of that recognition. However, it doesn't look like Brown will follow suit, despite what looks like a resurgent terror problem in London. Where that's concerned, though, our intelligence services' relationship is so close it seems to operate independent of the vagaries of high-level politics.

But the point ultimately was to give these two phenomenal fliers their due.

[bthun]

Harrumph Jordan!

"But the point ultimately was to give these two phenomenal fliers their due."

Most particularly Harrumph!