US troops Nazis, according to anti war weasels

Posted By Uncle Jimbo

I have always had fairly cordial relations with the large collection of liberals, progressives, moonbats, anarchists and other assorted lefties here in Madison. I've even been to an Independence Day Tea Party and Re-Revolution that was decent theater. This truce was tested on Memorial Day when some anti-war wankers decided to try and stop me from filming in a public park. It didn't work out for 'em and it made me question their peacefullness.

Well now they have gone and stepped right over the line. It's always a sign of the sorriness of your argument when you have to play the Nazi card, but it doesn't mean we have to let it slide. Madison area reader Bob sent me this piece of shite that was hung up in a local grocery store.

If this is how they wanna play then I can sure as hell take the gloves off. I will be there with bells on and already invited my buddy Don from Memorial Day up. Now I will put out an invite to anyone around the Mad City who thinks this deserves an answer.

The sad thing is that they immediately turn themselves into punks by making the reference and don't seem to care. At least we can get that whole "Supporting the troops" BS out the window. Even the unhinged haters on the left can't spin a Nazi reference into support. What complete jackasses to blatantly insult the people who give them the freedom to act so disrespectfully.

I don't know exactly who is behind this garbage, but sadly it seems to represent the sentiments of far too many of these clowns and that well and truly chafes my cones.
So game on, you sorry losers. You can chant your chants, but I'm bringing the rants, and I will be heard.

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(Contains Disturbing Image) There are those who try to equate our activities in the Middle East with the Nazis.I have photoshopped a painting by Auschwitz survivor Jan Komski to illustrate the truth. [Read More]

Comments

[jordan]

They seem to forget that the enemy has a vote, and that the U.S. military efforts don't just occur in a vacuum. They're a reaction to and defense against an aggressive, belligerant enemy. Yet, we're supposed to disarm?

Let them see the face of the enemy, and then cackle about the evil U.S. occupation. I have half a mind to advocate doing what these people want, just back off, disarm, surrender, leave them open to the tender mercies of our enemies, and see what happens.

[Cappy]

Take it to 'em, Uncle J. I'm confident you'll quickly set these guys strait, or at least shut them up for a little while.

[Gmo]

I've always hated that damned kevlar helmet. Appears similar to the Bund and is too damned heavy. Some serious neck injuries and complications. I harang'd the young troops to make the neck machine a part of their workout. I've also been called a nazi. I believe that the natural enemy of the hardcore, civil unrest, leftist is national fascism. If you are drawn towards crime, you hate law enforcement, if you are intolerant of authority you hate school. I responded to one filthy, disgusting, sign swinging bitch; "Its all a matter of what side of the oven door you're on."

[Kirk]

Now Uncle J. can you understand that there is another war that needs to be fought in order for us to obtain victory in Iraq.

Of course I don't mean in the conventional sense, but in fact what I ask might even be more demanding then even warfare

After all public speaking is the number one fear of so many in this country. And what I ask could alienate you from your neighbors, people you had considered your friends, even your family. It could mean that you might have to remove yourself from your church, and you might even lose your job.

What I ask is to be public and vocal against the "enemy within". First I ask you to recognize the people among you as the enemy within as so many are so unaware to even understand that there is an enemy within.

I have often wondered how good Americans allowed the counter-culture of the 60s to take control of the country. Where were they when the little battles needed to be fought. Battles at the school board, or the city council, or against the state legislator who you considered a neighbor or even a friend.

I am not sure I totally got a handle on what happened. Perhaps coming home from WWII people just didn't want any conflict anymore so they shut themselves off from what was going around them. Perhaps, and this is really surprising for people who faced the machine guns of the Nazis and Japs, the fear of public speaking was too much for them. Or perhaps the revolution of the cultural Marxists taking over was just too subtle for them. I remember hearing people time and time again say "when the revolution comes" not realizing that the revolution was here, right under their very noses, though of course not being the type of revolution they were expecting or even knew how to fight.

I encourage you to see this following video to understand the nature of the enemy. And just remember just because the war isn't a shooting war, it doesn't mean there hasn't been casualties in the this Civil War of ours.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7762995429055925877

Sometimes some of the most important battles are not fought with machine guns and hand grenades but with suit and tie. And it takes a different kind of courage to fight this war than it does to run up against machine gun nests. It is close quarters "combat" where you may be fighting those who you had previously considered friends.

[Kirk]

By the way,

Free speech was never meant to protect sedition.

If some jerk tried to post a picture like that during WWII he would be hauled in to prison so fast he's head would spin.

That would be if he was lucky and his neighbors didn't get to him first.

Treason isn't protected by free speech, and it is time we take action against these scumbags.

[Kirk]

Most of you may know this but Nazi stand for National Socialist Workers Party.

The Left are the TRUE NAZIS!

Liberalism really is a Mental Disorder!

[rgrmom82]

yep...can you hear the limbo rhythm playing?

How LOOOOOOWWWWWW can you go?

[MrSparkle]

Kirk just stfu for five seconds mate. I can't make heads nor tails of the streaming bullshit you ejaculate everywhere.

For everyone else it depends on how you interpret. If it's intended to allude the feeling of some Iraqis to the French and Russians in the 40s, well that might be a valid point huh?

Jordan: "They're a reaction to and defense against an aggressive, belligerant enemy." We're talking about the Iraq war right?

[toad]

I doubt there is much to be gained by ranting to the losers unless you just enjoy mostly just pissin in the wind. Most of them are terribly uninformed and the rest are just ignorant and semiprofessional military haters and protestors. If they won't take the time to inform themselves before they spout their crap and carry their picket signs then why do you think they will listen to what you have to say? If they stir you up enough to rant about them, they will just consider that they have accomplished something good for them. Those of us who will read your rant already understand and agree with at least most of it. Instead of ranting, consider making a list of all of their identities, addresses, contact info and maybe even who employs them and what businesses they or their families own so we know how to not support them and treat them in the future. Wishful thinking on my part I suppose. (Does anyone else ever wonder who feeds some of those really weird idiots?)

[Dave]

Are you kidding me? I come home from Afghanistan to find out that the loony left in this country is using the quintessential party of the leftists in all of history to call me a Nazi.

The same party in the 1940's that gassed the Jewish, the undesireable, the gypsies, the imperfect, the retarded and on and on. The same party that outlawed and confiscated firearms from the public in order to remain in power. The same leftist party that endorsed a madman who currently rots in Hell in a room just down the hall from Dahmer.

Since these asshats are so clueless, and I think at this point, beyond saving; I think we need to just start repeatedly beating them to within about 1.8 inches of their lives.

Let the asshat who posted that little flyer stop by my house. I have a stack of sandwiches and a bat.

I will be waiting

[Kirk]

You stfu MrSparle.

You want to know who feels like they are under an occupier.

I feel I am under an occupier.

An occupier who tries to control what I say at the cost of my job or worst.

An occupier who forbids me from using my land as I choose though regulatory takings without paying for the lost value of my land because of the takings.

An occupier who confiscates a great deal of my income to feed its ever increasing hunger.

An occupier who force my children to be indoctrinated in their socialistic ideology.

An occupier who has even denied me the right to vote by doing away with the ballot box and instead replacing it with "vote-by-mail" doing away with the confidentiality of the vote and allowing Union Bosses to force their members to give them signed but not filled out ballots that tne Union Bosses can fill in with the candidates they want to win.

And I try to look back and figure out, how did it all happen? At what point did good Americans lose control and why did our occupier have such an easy time getting power. And I really don't have an complete answer to that.

So, you stfu MrSparle. We have tolerated your sedition for way too long!

[Kirk]

MrSparle you are the true Nazi.

[Steve]

What complete jackasses to blatantly insult the people who give them the freedom to act so disrespectfully.

They don't have that freedom. It's called sedition.

Too bad it's not enforced.

[MrSparkle]

Dave my point was the poster wasn't necessarily the lowest common denominator you can imagine, i.e. simply comparing you to a Nazi. It could quite well be an accurate remark that the US are perceived in a similar light to the German occupation during WW2, therefore they would argue we should rethink what we are doing.

I'm not saying it's accurate. I'm not saying it's in good taste. It is a political poster and it's meant to cause a commotion. America is a free country and if someone thinks the government is fucking up they should be free to say it freely.

A select band of fanatics here seem to think the left-wing in the US is truly insane. Suddenly this poster means the whole left is thinking soldiers are Nazis, suddenly it destroys any argument about them supporting troops, it must all be lies and a façade so they can continue their cunning evil plans. What the f**k are you people smoking!:)

Kirk you need to calm down, drink a beer and quit whining about crap.

[horatio]

"I've always hated that damned kevlar helmet. Appears similar to the Bund..."

And whoever came up with the phrase "Homeland" should be fired - also too close to "Fatherland"

[Steve]

left-wing in the US is truly insane.

Yeah, they are truly insane.

I have studied them for quite some time now, and that is the best answer for why they are the way they are.

Here's a slightly different take on it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8764354463949023207

I agree with parts of this but I have to think that the very active Leftists out there have to know what they are doing. So that would make them criminally insane. That would make them evil.

[everydayjoe]

Freakin' Hippies...
Within the context of the war, what's amazing about these people is; everybody knows what it is they're against, (it seems to be all they talk about), but it's much harder to understand and know what these people are for, what the purpose is that their agenda serves, how they plan to implement their agenda, and most importantly, how they plan to sustain and measure it.

To better understand your leftist-oriented demographic, below is a quick, informal, opinion poll that can be printed out and distributed at your local Patchouli-Fest:

The War Protest Survey 2007 (Hippie quiz):

1. What are you protesting?
a. Bush's war in Iraq!
b. the illegal occupation, man.
c. nazi baby-killers
d. illegal weed

2. What are you hoping to solve?
a. ending the slaughter of innocents for oil
b. ending the imperialist occupation
c. ending the slaughter of our poor, uneducated, immature troops
d. scarce availablility of quality weed

3. What alternatives do you support?
a. ending the war now!
b. getting out of the Middle East now!
c. withdrawing troops now!
d. legalizing weed now!

4. What steps do you take to resolve these problems?
a. impeach Bush & Cheney
b. cut and run from Iraq
c. cut funding for the troops
d. decriminalize and regulate weed

5. How do you measure the success of your agenda?
a. a progressive democratic president in the whitehouse
b. peace-loving muslims in every American neighborhood
c. war funding used to subsidize amnesty programs
d. greenhouses full of skunkbuds on every university

Once this intelligence has been collected and tallied, we will be better able to implement countermeasures on the homefront.

...that is all, dudes! :)

[Mark]

Uncle Jimbo metaphorically asks, "Why are there moonbats?" My first two reasons are:

1) A disengaged ang progressively ignorant population, ranging from functional illiterates to the idiot savants in their ivy league towers.

2) An educational system that has largely abandoned abandoned critical thinking for political indoctrination, K-12, and through every level of the university, public and private.

[Lands’nGrooves (aka tim)]

Saw part of the movie “The F Word” last night. The commentator asked one of the protesters in NYC during the 2004 RNC if he was going to vote for Kerry and he says, “Well man, I don’t really vote FOR people. I was taught by my father to vote AGAINST someone”. There ya’ go, another unintelligent lefty answer to what they are FOR. Nothing.

[jordan]

Yes, Sparkle, I'm talking about the Iraq War, where we're fighting a belligerant enemy who deliberately conducts mass killings of civilians, especially women and children. It's the same enemy you'll find in southern Thailand, the Philippines, the Horn of Africa and Afghanistan. Kind of a global issue centering on the use of terror.

This contrasts with how coalition forces are fighting in Iraq, who will repeatedly cede tactical advantage on the remote possibility of civilian damage, or accept added risk so children or even historic archeological sites will not be harmed. Personally, I'm more concerned with our soldiers' safety than, say, the Ziggurat of Ur, but that's only me.

The counterinsurgency described above demands it -- you protect the populace, gain their trust, and provide security so they can strengthen their institutions and communities, and their government can consolidate it's power and find it's land legs, which they BETTER be doing right now.

Our forces are out on their burning streets, buying Iraq's politicians that opportunity with American blood, sweat and tears, and if that parliament goes into summer recess, that's it. I'm done.

[mindy abraham]

Our troops are NOT nazis they are heroes!!!!

[FbL]

Re: Madison...

Is it too late to organize a counter-protest?

[Ghost of Habu, The Pit Viper]

Originally posted by Toad:
"Instead of ranting, consider making a list of all of their identities, addresses, contact info and maybe even who employs them and what businesses they or their families own so we know how to not support them and treat them in the future."

There's the answer. Remember, most of these folks are 1 pebble short of being full-fledged paranoids anyway, and they'll be absolutely positive it's "Big Brother" at work abridging their "rights", when in fact all we're doing is deciding where we do (and DON'T) want to spend our money.

After all, we're not telling anybody that you can't employ them, we're just telling you that we can happily spend our money elsewhere.

That's how it's done.

[Uncle Jimbo]

Oh it's on FbL, it's on!

Cordially,

Uncle J

[VRWC - CDN Chapter]

Is it an occupation, or is it a war?

The numbskulls can't even get their objection straight on a poster!

Give 'em hell, Uncle Jimbo!

[referman]

OOORRRRAAAahhhh,let the MF put a poster in my town I'll have to have bail money!!As UJ said we have let the Crap go on long enough damn it!!Nazis is going to FKing far!!The asshats refuse to open their eyes and read what our soldiers are saying..The Media has refused to put anything but death and body counts on the front page!!I'm writing my FKING senator and demanding my damn enlistment papers I can't take these scumbags in my back yard anymore!!!!!!!I'd rather be dodging bullets than worring about who's going to stick it up my ass!Beware anti war mother FKRS cross me and I will Fck you up,now it's personel!!!!!My apology to the ladies. Semper Fi

[OldSoldier54]

"...Its all a matter of what side of the oven door you're on."

After carefully considering the context ... AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! LMBO!! I wish I could have seen the look on her face. That's a VERY military style answer. :)

UJ,
Wish I had the bank to be there, dude.

[Harry Buttle]

I think the irony here is that the Germans did come to appreciate being occupied by the US.

[John Ryan]

About 70% of the American people are against the war in Iraq. That is roughly 200 million. Some of these 200 million believe outlandish things. But most are just regular Americans that think the war was a big mistake. In the last 2 days Senators Lugar and Voinovich have also blasted the war. Pointing out what 100,000 (?) people may say out of a block of 200 million just shows a weakness in position.

[Tantor]

It's worth pointing out that the jihadis we are fighting against think the Nazis were the good guys in WWII. The Arab countries supported the Nazis and the Muslim world still recycles Nazi propaganda. When Israel caught Adolph Eichman, the project manager for the Holocaust/Final Solution, one paper in Saudi Arabia ran a headline describing Eichman as the man who had the "honor of killing six million Jews."

It's pretty hammer-headed stupid for the lefties to be unable to tell one side from another.

[referman]

I just wrote my John M Mchugh congressman!!Hope the mans got a pair and a lot of pull!!God bless us all,now we are fighting on all fronts!!Semper Fi

[Jenn]

Go get 'em! I hope we get to see some footage, because if it was anything like the "Memorial Day" event, I hope you drop 'em this time.

[Matt]

It's not clear to me why our troops are still there. We toppled Saddam. There is no weapons of mass destruction. Mission accomplished. Done. Why our we risking our troops valuable lives? Let them settle their civil war on their own. What's in it for us? I don't see our national security at stake here. We don't need troops on the ground to look out for our national sercurity. We've go satellites and ways to monitor. They try and make a move on us, we'll just be all over them. Quick in and out.

[Synova]

You're right, Matt. We don't need troops on the ground. We can see to our national security without risking a single American life. All it takes is a nice big ICBM and all our trouble is turned to glass.

Seriously, what's in it for us is the opportunity to address the source of Islamic terrorism by something more humane than genocide. That's a choice we made and I think it's the right one.

[rick554]

Well, I went to DC for a weekend . Maybe Madison is the next stop?? Let me know if you need any help :-)
Rick 554
REDHORSE!

[Matt]

Synova, I'm not sure Iraq is the source of terrorism. If we act in clear payback or self defense, no one will blame us. But if it's not clear cut, the ill will will spawn more terrorists. One life lost is one too many so only if it is clearly worth the sacrifice should we allow it.

[jordan]

John, I keep hearing "everyone" is "against" the war. What does this mean? Does that mean everyone thinks we should withdraw now? When you say 70% are against the war, is that they didn't want to go in in the first place, but now that we're there we, reluctantly, have to fight? Or does that mean 70% think we should pull out immediately?

If those particulars aren't part of all these "polls" and numbers, the broad statements they make are pretty much useless. It's not explained what "70% are against the war" means, in any practical context. We should stay, fight, leave, run...what?

We shouldn't have ever gone in? A completely useless comment at this time, unless your goal is to weaken the position and status of our forces in Iraq.

[Arch]

John Ryan:

Where did your 70% number come from? A poll? 70% are dissatisfied with the Iraq War. I'm surprised the number isn't 100%. What sane person likes any war? I certainly did not enjoy the ones I was in.

The politicians and their pollsters haven't yet asked the right questions, "What should we do about Iraq? Iran? Radical Islam? Al Qaeda?"

In less than two years we will have a new President of the United States facing the most serious threat to our country in its history. A threat that intends to end our freedoms of speech, religion, press, assembly, keep and bare arms, due process, redress, privacy, all women's rights and more.

When we elected George W. Bush no one knew that terrorists would hijack airliners and crash them to kill civilians. Bush rose to the occasion on 9/11. Since, he has made mistakes as anyone might. I thank God the Commander in Chief is not Gore or Kerry.

Today we know what we are facing. Who will rise to meet it?

[douglas]

MrSparkle, I've got plenty of disagreement with Kirk's position, but your statements...

"Kirk just stfu for five seconds mate. I can't make heads nor tails of the streaming bullshit you ejaculate everywhere.

For everyone else it depends on how you interpret. If it's intended to allude the feeling of some Iraqis to the French and Russians in the 40s, well that might be a valid point huh?"

It's all in how you interpret? I think not. It's clearly saying 'OF COURSE they see us as occupiers, because WE ARE! Smiling or not'. As for 'alluding' to the feelings of persons occupied by the Germans in WWII, go find someone in your community who was there, a Czech, a Pole, a Yugoslav, a Russian, and ask them what it was like (not so much the French- enough collusion there to minimize the harshest treatment the Nazis could dish out). Go to your local Jewish community, I'm sure they could hook you up with someone who could enlighten you a bit. See what they have to say. I'm confident the complaints would be MUCH worse than almost anything any Iraqi who's being honest would have to tell you about Americans. If you insist it's valid, how about you back it up with something, and I'm pretty sure you can minimize the vulgarity while you're at it.

[Arch]

I just reread my last post and remembered an old National Lampoon parody VW add (beetles would float).

It was a picture of Ted Kennedy and a blonde babe crossing a river in a Beetle. The caption read, "If Ted Kennedy had a VW he'd be President."

[Matt]

Iraq? We're done.

Iran? Let them go bankcrupt doing an arms race with Isreal. They'll become like the old Soviet Union.

Radical Islam? The radicals are always a minority unless the general citizentry feel provoked so don't give them a reason to spread.

Al Qaeda? We put our focus on them and bring their leadership to justice.

[Ymarsakar]

Synova's point about dealing with the source of terrorism doesn't mean that Iraq is the source, since she didn't say that we were "targeting" the source.

Iraq will allow us to deal with the source of terrorism on a level favorable to the US. But unless people understand what the source of terrorism is, and it ain't the US or the Republicans btw, then they obviously will believe that dealing with Iraq is wrong. But those people wouldn't know how to solve the problem anyways. The Left can't even solve the problems in this country, they just make it worse, how are they going to solve the source of terrorism problems in the Middle East? Can't be done. Won't be done.

[Ymarsakar]

Comment below written by: MrSparkle

Kirk just stfu for five seconds mate. I can't make heads nor tails of the streaming bullshit you ejaculate everywhere.

That's your problem spark, not his.

[BOB SYKES]

WHAT IS THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE STORE AND WHO OWNS/MANAGES IT?

[jordan]

To expand on what douglas said, after we left and the Russians took over Cam Ran Bay, the locals bemoaned the loss of the friendly, free-spending Americans.

There are many reports of Iraqis declaring that they only feel safe when the Americans are around, and they trust them more than they trust the police. These American occupiers are being requested by residents to go in and hold their neighborhoods.

You can be a good occupier, or a bad one. Occupation, in and of itself, doesn't have to be seen as a bad thing.

[drillanwr]

My gawd! Where ARE the "Soylent Green" garbage trucks when you need them?!?

[Larry]

What is the point of this all anyhow?

Bush and Both Parties are about to give our country away in the next few weeks so what are we really fighting for?

We worry about terrorists and weapons of mass destruction coming from the Islamofascists but this legislation is a weapon of mass destruction and it is pointed right at us about to be detonated.

So, again, what are we really fighting for? What we are trying to preserve is about to be lost regardless of what happens in Iraq.

[malclave]

So, just to see if I understand the logic the poster uses...

Since President Clinton sent troops in to occupy Kosovo, President Clinton can be equated to Hitler and his wife to Eva Braun.

Is that about it?

[Gene]

malclave actually it is the exact opposite.

Hillary is Hitler. Bill is Eva Braun.

[Larry]

Arch said:

In less than two years we will have a new President of the United States facing the most serious threat to our country in its history.

Actually the most serious threat to our country in its history is the amnesty legislation coming down the halls of Congress.

If that passes all the rest of this stuff really doesn't matter anymore.

[rgrmom82]

Sparkle did make a comment that I liked.

"America is a free country and if the people think the government is F***ing up, they should be able to say so freely". I would add especially in their own homes, businesses etc.

I totally agree, however the propah-gander sign isn't really dissing the American government, per se, it's dissing the American soldier. Therein lies the distinction and the "issue" that most of us have with it. When people figure out who the bad actors are, the boots or the suits, then we will have something to discuss.

[TBone]

Man I wish I was intown, I'd show up with a truck full of boys ready to shout down those hippy vermon. I've never had the opportunity to face one of those creeps head on.

[rgrmom82]

And another thing...

Change the word "occupier" to the word "Liberator"
which is what the troops are REALLY doing and then
it become obvious how really important words become and the spin war and how easy it is for the moonbats to manipulate minds. See, if you hang a sign that says "Nobody likes a Liberator",
well, then most people recognize that stupidity. But the use of a word that casts doubt in the heart, that "sigil" if you will causes a psychic "bounce", that gets in the mind of moderates, progressives, fence sitters, the undecided and erodes faith in the mission.

The MSM uses this tactic all the time. Not saying Bush hasn't done himself a few bonehead plays but the press has played a huge part in ruining this POTUS credibility. They do it just like this sign and they reach a whole lot more folks than one neighborhood full of dingbats.

[JihadGene]

***ATTENTION BRACK FIVE HEATHENS***

Great Reader KIM JONG IL ohfishwallee declair and leequest clarification on "TARGETED AREA" called State of Wishconson. So trell me, who more frucked up?...Madison or Milwaukee? I doan wanna target Norf Korea's friendly sister-cities like Portland, Oregon or
San Francisco, Coweefornia...yoo know?
Preeze advize...no want to waste nuke woket on Best Friends of DPRK!

Ruv yoo Brack 5 Heathens looooong time,

Great Reader
KIM Jong Il

[Arch]

Matt:

If we leave Iraq before the it is stable, a real civil war will erupt there between the Sunnis supported by Syria, Saudi Arabia and Al Qaeda and the Shiite militias supported by Iran. This conflict will make the Pol Pot regime appear mild by comparison.

America's position as an ally will again be undermined by the same group of leftists that deserted the Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians.

It is likely that this conflict will spread into a regional war involving the entire Middle East. The winner will either be Osama Bin Laden or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and he will own half of the world's known oil reserves and control the Gulf States.

Iran/Iraq will not be bankrupt. Far from it. Crude oil prices will hit $150 a barrel and western economies will collapse.

Pakistan, a nuclear power, will fall into the hands of radical islamists. Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan will also descend into chaos.

Israel will strike with nuclear weapons and, to prevent their destruction, we will be forced to intervene at great human cost.

The above scenario is not my analysis, but that of a CNN panel of experts.

Is this what you and your political allies want to happen? Is the political destruction of the Bush administration worth this price?

'

[Arch]

Larry:

I have called Dick Shelby and Jeff Sessions twice this week to voice my objection to this amnessty bill. They are working hard to kill it. I hope everyone who opposes this law will express their opinions to their senators and representative.

[Rich Casebolt]

But most are just regular Americans that think the war was a big mistake.

Many of your "70%", Mr. Ryan, are taking their position based ONLY on what they are told by the MSM ... which is the true "faulty intelligence" of this war.

Others' dissatisfaction is derived from a view that we are not fighting hard enough ... or temper their viewpoint with a recognition that we need to at least stay there until the Iraqis can handle their own security.

I notice there are a lot of gnat-straining naysayers on this thread ... from John to those who think we're already "done", simply because Saddam has assumed room temp.

Until Iraq is immunized from future hijacking by terrorists or other totalitarian expansionists, the job is NOT done ... for if we leave before then, we will have to go back and wage an even more destructive war, after it is hijacked again by a Saddam wannabe, or Iran.

Looks to me like our pharmaceutical companies could do this nation a great service ...

... by developing a "little blue pill" for the upper lip.

[tom]

the problem is, the war in Iraq hasn't done anything to give us freedom. it's nothing more than a waste of humanity.

[tom]

I forgot to mention the latest turncoats as well. At least Lugar seeing the light, finally.--

Voinovich, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, released his letter Tuesday — one day after Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, the panel's top Republican, said in a floor speech that Bush's strategy was not working.

[MrSparkle]

Rich Casebolt said "Many of your "70%", Mr. Ryan, are taking their position based ONLY on what they are told by the MSM ... which is the true "faulty intelligence" of this war."

I think you mean it's fair to be disillusioned with a war that was a total mistake. We're now trying to fix a problem that we made, sure it has to be fixed otherwise we'll face worse consequences, but effort should be made in distinguishing responsibility for the war and punishing those who have failed our country. Not backing them up.

THE BUCK STOPS HERE.

[Arch]

Sparkle:

Let's say we impeach Bush and send him to prison.

What then? How are you going solve the problem in Iraq? Will Osama Bin Laden just say, "Bush is gone, so I guess we can all just go home now and herd goats again."? Will Al Sadr's militia disband? Will Ahmadinejad abandon his enrichment program? Will Hamas and Hezbulloh stop their murderous rage against Israel? Lebanon? The United States? Will al Qaeda just disband?

No to all of the above.

If the "THE BUCK STOPS HERE" you will need to think of a better plan. Let's hear what President Sparkle would do.
.

[MrSparkle]

Arch:

:) has a ring to it!

I wasn't commenting on how we fix the mess (military). What some responses smell like is Prussian military honour, which has been the Achilles heal of many. The Prussians would follow an incompetent retard off the side of a cliff rather than damage their honour!

I'll tell you what though, the Israelis take you folks for a fucking ride, never mind Ahmadinnerjacket. You have other bases in the ME now so should tell them where to stick it. I'd probably do that first. Then crack my knuckles, spit out the chewing gum and get to work dealing.

[Bob]

Uncle Jimbo,

It might be very much more instructive to have the local asshats there in Madison sit down with the soldiers who defeated the Nazis to get a first-hand account of what they saw. With first-hand testimony available (and maybe an occasional ass-whupping at the hands of an 80-something year old paratrooper), there won't be any excuses about ignorance. Those who refuse to acknowledge the differences between Nazis and our soldiers become, then, the equivalent of the irreconcilables in Iraq: committed to bad behavior without regard to the truth. It is hard to imagine any jury of peers convicting those who defeated the Nazis at such great cost who undertook to straighten out the irreconcilables.......just a thought.

[jordan]

Sparkle, again you are stuck in the quicksand of "it was a mistake, it was Bush's fault, the war is horrible". Get past that. Get beyond it. This doesn't mean forget it, this means what is the action item at this time? (secure the streets, gain confidence of locals)

One of the reasons for Washington's inability to move forward beyond their partisan wallowing on this war is they get stuck on that point, and go no further. It's easy, but it's unhelpful.

It's harder to make pragmatic contributions with ideas about the hard choices that our forces are faced with over there.

[bthun]

"I have called Dick Shelby and Jeff Sessions twice this week to voice my objection to this amnessty bill. They are working hard to kill it. I hope everyone who opposes this law will express their opinions to their senators and representative."

Done, repeatedly...

And as rgrmom82 said,

"the propah-gander sign isn't really dissing the American government, per se, it's dissing the American soldier."

Yup, that's my problem with such garbage. If you hate Bush and members of the ruling parties, fine. Do and/or say whatever floats your boat, but acquire the correct targets before you fire.

Now when you start hammering on those who swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, with their lives. Those citizen/soldiers who are sworn to follow the orders of our elected civilian leadership. You not only show what an idiot you are in picking a fight with trained fighters, you also show what an idiot you are in your choice of those on whom you wish to assign the blame and responsibility for what you consider to be a failed foreign policy or whatever...

[Arch]

So, Sparkle, you have no ideas. Why am I not surprised? You hate Bush and that's where it ends. You're Tumbleweeds! No visual. No tally. No clue.

As for Israel, we do not need their bases. Israel is a democracy and an ally of the US.

[MrSparkle]

jordan, no, I agree with you. But the Bush admin was the source of error in this case and it's fair to assume that the majority who would not choose to repeat the Iraq war experience are unlikely to be entirely supportive of the Bush admin and the "mistaken" war.

[MrSparkle]

rgrmom82 I agree the poster is extremely inappropriate and shows ignorance. It is great agitprop but also offensive trash.

[Matt]

Arch, I listen to what you are saying about Sunnis supported by Syria, Saudi Arabia, Al Qaeda will have it out with Shites supported by Iran if we leave now and I say what's wrong with that? Let them settle their own differences and pay the price they are willing to pay.

See the problem with all the speculation that Bin Laden or Ahmadinejad will end up ruling the whole Middle East is unrealistic. All those countries are different countries for a reason, they are not going to sit still for someone not considered one of their own to rule them. So if Bin Laden or Ahmadinejad is foolish enough to try they will be buried. Look at how Vietnam fought off China. You would think since they are allies and both are communist countries they would cooperate. But reality has shown it is not that simple. Reality is that countries will become communist if that is their leaning but not simply because their neighbors are communists. Thailand remained non-communist. The Vietnam War was a total waste. Left alone the North would have taken over sooner and they would have become capitalistic sooner too.

My point about the nuclear weapons is that countries love to get that capability but no country will use it once they get it because no one favors mutual destruction on a massive scale.

The CNN scenario stems from the same type of thinking as the "Domino Effect" theory years ago that said if we let Vietnam become red then all of Southeast Asia would become red. That type of thinking was wrong then and that type of thinking is wrong now which paints an accopalytic scenario for the ME if we pull out.

Ofcourse, Hezbollah, Hamas, and all those guys will still remain belligerent once we pull out but there are limits on what they can do and if they get out of hand, we will take care of them just like we should be going full speed to get Bin Laden and bring him to justice (word is he would kill himself before getting captured and so be it).

So that's the plan. Let's be smart about this. Do what we do best and that is quick in and out. Let the situation develop in the ME as they may and intervene only when necessary. Leverage some of the dynamics there instead of doing all the heavy lifting ourselves.

Rich, you talk about immunizing Iraq from terrorists and dictators. I would say that to do that with our current approach would require our troops to be there on a permanent basis if at all achievable. We can better achieve that goal by sticking to our priciples of truth and justice, minimize meddling into others affairs, as to provide a favorable example to the world of what a truly democratic, freedom loving country could be like. Then people of the world will admire us and aspire to become like us by their own free will. The only lasting change is the change that comes from within. So it will take a lot of patient mentoring and leadership before the world will become the way we want it. But every worth while things take time and wisdom. And if we use our wisdom and our brains, we would not waste our lives.

[Ymarsakar]

My point about the nuclear weapons is that countries love to get that capability but no country will use it once they get it because no one favors mutual destruction on a massive scale.

What do you think Arafat's decision at Camp David then was? It was ensuring the mutual destruction of Palestine and Israel, with the side effects being more power to Arafat.

[Ymarsakar]

Get past that. Get beyond it. This doesn't mean forget it, this means what is the action item at this time?

The action item at this time is to make easy complaints because pushing forward or up against gravity is hard.

[Arch]

Matt:

Where were you stationed in South East Asia?

How many battles did the US win in Vietnam? All of them.

How many units American surrendered in Vietnam? Zero.

How many battles did the NVA & VC win? Zero.

Did you read the Paris Peace Accords that ended the war in Vietnam? We won.

The Case-Church Amendment? Congress gave Vietnam away.

Did you read Kissinger's Lessons Learned? The domino theory worked.

Vietnam and China have been enemies aince the 10th century.

Vietnam is not a capitalist state, they are a repressive, corrupt communist dictatorship who reeducated 850,000 South Vietnamese to death. To avoid economic collapse, they instituted market reforms.

Jane Fonda saw Pol Pot as a gentle, polite, scholarly aggrarian reformer (who murdered 2,000,000 - a third of his population).

As I said in the above post, the analysis was CNN's not mine or that of some right wing blog. General Barry Mc Caffrey, a very liberal retired officer is rough on the Bush but sees no cut & run option. Gen Baptiste wants 500,000 troops!

No one knows what would happen if we again ran away from our commitment. You seem to be the only one who thinks we could leave without serious consequences. What if you're wrong?

[Ymarsakar]

What some responses smell like is Prussian military honour, which has been the Achilles heal of many. The Prussians would follow an incompetent retard off the side of a cliff rather than damage their honour!

I guess you would have been in McClellan's camp then. Or the Praetorian Guard for that matter.

You just don't know how to maintain stability in a civilization, Spark. That's not only beyond your pay grade, but you don't even study the real life examples like Iraq and Venezuella.

Don't take the troll's droppings on honor via his fake Jimbo routine, that seriously Spark.

[Matt]

Arch, I didn't say we lost any battles in Vietnam. I just think we may have lost lives needlessly. Vietnam is not a capitalistic country but my point is left alone, those guys learned the hard way and wised up. I don't agree that the Domino Theory worked. The communist bloc just ran to the ground trying to implement their unrealistic ideas. I don't see it as running away from our commitment. We need to clearly state realistic achievable goals every step of the way. Our goal was to topple Saddam and search for WMD. Done. The serious consequences if we leave now are serious only from the perspective of the people there. If they don't know enough not to kill their own then let them learn the hard way.

[Matt]

Ymarsakar, you don't mean mutual destruction via nuclear weapons do you? Because the only "power" to Arafat in that case would have been perhaps the nuclear power from a mushroom cloud.

[MrSparkle]

Oh Ymarsakar, do not read so much into that, I'm fearful you will come out the other end missing your hat my fellow! Why some people - who have seen Iraq miss-sold and have seen it unfurl into a truly complex situation (you need a phd to comprehend some of it - indeed some people with phds had warned of the impending colossus and imperial hubris) - may have a problem following our King George!

We have attacked the castle now and through the breech we go. What's the real answer Arch? I don't have it. Ymar, I believe, thinks Iraq was the Forlorn Hope (those doomed to be first through the breech to take the walls), and the castle is the whole ME. Quite frankly, we should have sat at the walls. That's old news huh? Unfortunately it's very hard to disgrace some commanders these days. Anyhow I don't know, but I'm not a damn military engineer!

[Rich Casebolt]

Rich, you talk about immunizing Iraq from terrorists and dictators. I would say that to do that with our current approach would require our troops to be there on a permanent basis if at all achievable.

You don't give the people of Iraq enough credit for being human. The vast majority -- like every human not deluded by totalitarian power and/or fanaticism -- simply wish to live free and pursue happiness.

And they are standing up to do so, as we speak ... with uniforms ranging from Iraqi Army to purple fingers.

Our job is to give them the breathing space, after decades of lawless totalitarian rule, to develop governance that can sustain that space ... and no longer allow its blood and treasure to be hijacked to attack our civilization, by those who wish to impose their will upon us, rights be damned.

Then ... and only then ... can we leave.

We can better achieve that goal by sticking to our priciples of truth and justice, minimize meddling into others affairs, as to provide a favorable example to the world of what a truly democratic, freedom loving country could be like.

If they can't see that example already over the last sixty or so years -- even with the "meddling" that BTW is derived from people like you stridently refusing to support decisive, direct military action when fact and reason called for it, then people are simply blind ... and often choose to be that way, out of envy or lemminglike following of the charismatic among them.

Your position is just a variation on "Blame America" that we've all heard before.

Then people of the world will admire us and aspire to become like us by their own free will.

Yes ... just like burglars are guaranteed to take up an honest living when they start admiring the look of your neighborhood.

The unstated corollary to your statement, Matt, is the centerpiece of 20th Century conventional wisdom ... that people who have ALREADY discovered what it takes to sustain freedom and peace in a highly-interconnected global civilization have neither the ability nor the right to impart those principles to others whose dysfunctional societies are threatening that civilization.

The blind worship of self-determination became inadequate as a principle for the promotion of peace, the day the first jetliner flew across the Atlantic.

The admiration you describe doesn't happen if the thugs and fanatics control the flow of information to the masses ... and/or control them by the threat of totalitarian force.

How much more damage to our civilization are you willing to absorb before you support ACTION to change that reality?

The only lasting change is the change that comes from within. So it will take a lot of patient mentoring and leadership before the world will become the way we want it. But every worth while things take time and wisdom. And if we use our wisdom and our brains, we would not waste our lives.

And even then, some who embrace totalitarian rule -- as long as they are the leaders -- still won't change.

What do you do about them?

The problem is, too many people who think like you, Matt, have conflated knowledge and wisdom, to the point that you fail to perceive that direct and decisive action against totalitarians is wisdom ...

... and that to hold back, as we did for DECADES, costs more lives, while allowing us to feel good about a facade of peace that is anything but, until -- to your surprise and shock -- the next 911 ... or worse ... happens.

The evil of totalitarian rule must be CONFRONTED, or we risk it spreading.

Recognition of that, is wisdom.

[Matt]

Thank you Rich. Well said. I will have to think about what you have said and reflect on it. I respect your ideas.

[Matt]

Ok Rich I understand where you are coming from. However, your premise that we have allowed self determination in the world in the past is contradicted by events in the past where we actively conspired to topple democratically elected leaders of other countries in order to prop up totalitarian dictators in their place. Now we took decisive action to topple Saddam, a totalitarian dictator, which is good but we should be careful not to be tempted to prop up a leader of our choice without thinking about the people's choice.

Also your concern about others imposing their will on us is a good scare tactic used by those who profit from wars but the fact is we are more likely in the position to impose our will on the world. I'm just asking that we be judicious about it.

[kat-missouri]

A few thoughts:

1) The answer to these folks may be a counter demonstration, but I would suggest that the counter to such thoughts and actions are to partake more fully in activities that do honor our freedom and our veterans. In the next months are opportunities to do so. 4th of July. What are you doing? Are you at home BBQing and swimming and enjoying time with your family? That is fantastic. However, have you considered joining your local VFW, American Legion or other groups (even your own) in marching in your local 4th of July parade, flying your banners high? Carrying signs that promote supporting our troops? Promote the idea of the honorable defense of our nation?

What are you doing besides talking on this website?

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy Blackfive and the sometimes raucus discussions here. But, in the real world, the counter to the people who put up signs declaring our armed forces as equal to Nazis is a real world effort to show people that DO support our troops and think they are alone or are afraid to voice their thoughts that there are people like them. and, since the use of the internet is actually limited to a certain percentage of the people, your voices here are limited as well. The only thing that this has going for it is the ability to organize and influence people. Are you willing to do more?

That is the question.

And, I refute any ideas that a gang of guys in a pickup truck should go harass the protesters in anyway that resembles violence. Do not re-enforce the idea of krystallnacht.

2) Stopping future terrorism by being in Iraq is not necessarily the appropriate argument. Terrorism is here and now. We may as yet suffer attacks, either here on the home front or in allied nations. Certainly, al Qaida and its affiliates have not wasted any time in spreading their disease among many nations. Terrorist attacks have already taken place in places like algiers, Morrocco, Saudi Arabia, Phillipines and many other places around the globe. Whether they present themselves as a united organization and army or are ideologically affiliated and share resources, common language and mutual assistance (including safe houses for those travelling in and out of theater, transferring money, arms or knowledge), all of these things exist.

They will continue to look for avenues through which they can expand and gain footing, whether we are there at full war or not.

Many have remarked that Iraq has "created terrorists" or "terrorists" were not in Iraq when we invaded. both may be true or not. The fact is, we could not leave an unstable and outright opponent on our flanks while we were at war in Afghanistan. Once we were at war in Iraq and Al Qaida appeared, it changed who the direct enemy was, but not the theater of combat. It is no more or less than having defeated one army, the next appears on the horizon. Simply because their name and purpose changed, does not mean we should abandon the field to them.

This is not about future terrorism or the future of Al Qaida or the future of Iraq as a haven for terrorists. Terrorism is now. Al Qaida is now in Iraq and Afghanistan (and many more places). Iraq is a haven for terrorist Islamists now. Whether that bent is the Salafist or Shi'ite variety makes little difference. Their function and their purpose remains the same and cannot be tolerated neither as an existential threat to far flung resources and allies nor to this nation directly and on our land.

3) The effect of Iraq, being thought of and labeled as a separate war, is a falsity that we continually allow ourselves to be drawn into. this poster is one such falsity. It allows us to imagine we would or should do something different in Afghanistan or the war there would have been the definitive war and destruction of al Qaida. That goes against all current and historical facts. With or without Iraq, bin laden and al Qaida major players would have gone to Pakistan. We would still have to figure out what we were going to to there with a nuclear state. Without Iraq, Afghanistan would loom larger on our conscience and would have produced the same: more terrorist Islamists imagining themselves to be fighting a holy jihad.

We continually ignore the history of the Afghan/Russo war and the way in which the russians were defeated. Hundreds of thousands of men from nations across the middle east flew in to different nations or walked in, in order to fight the Russians. They did not need another front in the war, such as Iraq, to encourage their activities. It has been a long standing tradition and function of these people and nations to send their men in such a manner. Without Iraq so large in our eyes, we would be having the same discussion about Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iran as well as the spread of Islamist Salafist ideology that infects wherever these people and wars manifest themselves.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, wherever.

One difference between the Russo/Afghan war and now is that the russians did not have the opportunity to confront directly or cut off the supply of fighters, weapons and money to Afghanistan. Iraq does act as a sucking hole that has brought in much money, weapons and men that we might have otherwise faced in the dirt and mountains of Afghanistan. The advantage is that these nations that may be supplying these forces now know that they will someday reap the whirlwind from that which they have sown as the Saudis must surely know that they have been reaping the effects of their support to the mujihadeen in the 80s and 90s.

As horrendous as the urban environment of Iraq is for our forces, it is equally horrendous for the jihad minded takfiri. They may get to the battle front more quickly in Iraq, but they will also leave there dead more quickly.

Afghanistan also presents a problem of resupplying and secure basing of armed forces. Another problem the Russos had. We can resupply Iraq regularly with men and weapons to a hot front with the enemy.

The only difference between these two fronts of the war is that they are not separate from the war, but simply fought on with different means and resources. Beyond that, they are the same, a confrontation with enemies that do not imagine a nations borders are "sovereign" nor its people "non-combatants".

4) Escalation of war with a "?" to follow. War, whatever its name or place, is always a fluctuation of "hot", "warm" and "cold". Before war ends, there is always an "escalation" of force. That is, in fact, how you overcome the enemy and enforce our will (to paraphrase Clausewitz). To bemoan escalation of war is to bemoan the US joining the British in WWII or the Yalta conference and the inclusion of the Russians as allies or to bemoan the Normandy invasion; to bemoan US forces at Bellau woods in WWI or Sherman's march to the sea, Grant's pulling increasing and re-enforcing the Union Army, confronting Lee on multiple fronts until Lee could no longer sustain battle; it is George WAshington at Yorktown against Cornwallis. It is to pretend that the purpose of war is not to slowly wind down, but to increase in such a manner until one or the other side capitulates. It is the fire that cleanses before the peace.

What war was not escalated until the end?

The question is not the escalation of war. The question is what you see as the end of war and what "Peace" will look like. Is it the "peace" where the enemy remains entrenched and capable of attacking us regularly and in an "escalating" manner until we are forced to respond again? Are we willing to risk all for that kind of peace? Or, is it a peace where the enemy is defeated, his ideology shown to be the harbinger of hell that it is and our nation, our freedom secured against one more threat and tyranny?

What is your "peace"?

[Bill]

WOW! I mean just wow! This really begs the question "Is there nothing cared anymore?". I mean are we now going to compare the freedom defending American troops to the freedom hating Nazis? This is a brand new low and considering where we were at I didn't think it could get much lower. Look, if the anti-war crowd wants to question the American policing action in Iraq as an occupation its one thing, bring the Nazis into the picture is just sickening.

[arch]

Kat:

Avoid using inflamatory analogies such as your advice, "Do not re-enforce the idea of krystallnacht."

Also, I want whatever recreational substance you are abusing and I want it now.

[Mobius]

Che Guevarra and the Hamas have murdered more innocent people than the entire history of the US Military, but the Democrats worship them like gods. Hmmm...

[tyree]

Mr. Sparkle Said, "But the Bush admin was the source of error in this case "
Read what Clinton and Gore were saying about Saddam in 1998. It was clear at that time among the liberals that Saddam was a tyrant, had WMD's and was firing missiles at US airmen way before Bush was elected. Taking him out only became an "error" when liberals realized that they could profit politically from pushing that point. Every war we ever fought was "unpopular" with the civilians as it dragged on. Read the article on General Nathaniel Greene in this months Smithsonian magazine (July 2007) about how popular our War of Independence was as it entered it's 6th year. The Democrats are not stupid, and they knew that the polls "supporting" the war would eventually turn south, so they created this whole myth that the lack of support springs from President. All of our Presidents have seen their popularity and the popularity of the war dip as time went on. Read a little history, Washington (who wasn't President at the time) Lincoln, Wilson, Roosevelt and Johnson saw their popularity drop as their wars dragged on. Did Johnson get reelected in 1968? The polls are reporting a predictable phenomena and trying to blame it on Bush. Of all of our Presidents, Jimmy Carter is the most to blame for Islamic terrorism. We are just trying to fix his "error".
Someone probably already pointed it out but some of the same polls that say that say "70% against the war" also say "majority wants us to win". Since the ones that want us to loose are in the minority and many of them are on the other side, I say we go for the W on this one.

[tyree]

I have a little banner I keep copies of in my wallet. I put it gently under the windshield wiper of ever "Impeach Bush" and "No Blood for Oil" mobile that I see in the parking lot. It says,
"The opposite of war isn't peace but surrender. While it pleases the Left to see itself as the embodiment of virtue, the "pro-war" element is working for peace too-but on better terms" (Author-Unknown, but he was probably a veteran)

Thanks Black-Five, my nephew, my cousin, my sons and all the other sheepdogs out there.

[The WatchCat]

Well done, Tyree. I hope you won't mind if some of us imitate you.

[tyree]

Thanks, and no, I don't mind. I didn't write it, but I wish I knew who did. The War/Peace argument is a false dilemma, asking one to choose between two choices when actually there are many options.
Given two countries A and B:
A and B want peace=Peace
A wants war, B wants peace=War
B wants war, A wants peace=War
A and B want war=War
I am still amazed at the number of people who don't understand this.

[kat-missouri]

Arch...
It's called "Freedom". Try it some time, you might like it.

[Michele San Pietro]

I think it demented and sacrilegious to compare the U.S. troops with the Nazis, if nothing else because the former ones were decisive in defeating the latter ones. Those who say such monstrous things should be jailed immediately and spend at least a couple of years there.

[arch]

Uncle Jimbo,

I can proudly say that to see a herd of rabid hippies I would need to drive hundreds of miles. Those who live down here are still in the closet.

[bthun]

and that's why I love the south...

[daisycutter]

Maybe we need a counterposter showing a protester in shackles and appropriate jump suit captioned "IMPRISON FOR TREASON".

[warvet48]

Once again I am amazed with the fact that there are people of such substandard intelligence. Comparing our troops with the Nazis sickens me. Our troops are the greatest there are and they are doing a great job (unknown by most of our citizenry thanks to MSM). Those of you who keep crying for us to get out and quit will never understand the logic of completing the mission as the rest of us understand it. It's a shame. When the first Gulf war ended, we just turned to each other and said "this is crazy, let's go to Bahgdad and finish it, we know we'll be back in 10 years". Well, it wasn't 10 years, but we were back. And yes I don't need a lecture on how we ended the war when we were supposed to. The politics of it all.
I worry for our troops, having to deal with crazy ROE and the situations they are fighting in. But they are the best, and they will prevail unless the left has its way and underfunds them or pulls them out before they can finish.
I totally support anyone who can go and face these Nazi rally punks down. I am with you in spirit.

[Matt]

Kat, you make it sound like the Islamists are a united front. I don't think so. It's a matter of alliances. Remember we were an ally to Bin Laden in their fight against the Ruskies. So alliances come and go depending on the needs of the different factions and countries. So instead of generalizing, we should clearly identify which group pose the greatest threat to us and address them. Once the clearly defined goal is achieved then we are done.

Yes, perhaps before a war end there is a period of escalation of force. But the escalation of force does not necessarily equate a favorable outcome for us.

It's all well and nice to say that peace comes when the enemy is defeated. However, since alliances shift and change all the time, an ally today can be an enemy tomorrow. So I say peace is whenever there is no outright war. So I would prefer a cold war over a hot war any day of the week. Enjoy peace whenever we can get it because conflicts can flare up at any time and we should minimize it as much as we can.

[Michele San Pietro]

The U.S. was never an ally of Bin Laden, this is one of the most shameful lies circulated by enemies of America. At the time of the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, Bin Laden was just about 20 years old and could be no big gun. Beside that, the Talebans as such were formed after the soldiers of the former Soviet Unione left Afghanistan.

[kat-missouri]

Dear Matt,

I believe I did use the word "alliance" and indicated that they had varying degrees of interaction. That is why we are at hot war with some and "cold war" with others (ie, use of intelligence agencies, police, military and justice systems of nations they reside in).

HOwever these alliances come and go, they exist and promulgate the the spread of Islamist Salafist ideology that leads to the spread of war and accelerates the hot war we are experiencing now.

As for whether escalation equates to a favorable outcome, your point is valid, but is valid in any war between two or more sides. Someone is going to lose. I simply prefer not to lose this front in the battle as it is central to the region and can be used to reach out and "touch" many more places there and abroad by routes through "neutral" nations.

As far as "once a clearly defined goal is reached then we are done", that is an interesting point of view and seems to be the issue at hand. What is the clearly defined goal? It is clear that the demise of certain al qaida leaders did not equate the demise of al qaida in Iraq. It is clear that the similar demise of bin laden or zawahiri would also not equate to the demise of global al qaida and terrorism. It doesn't necessarily mean that I believe we will be at large and hot war with these factions all the time, simply that defeating a large number of them and making their ideology that of a "loser" in this front of the war will go along way towards dissuading others from joining.

Not that it will happen anytime soon. They believe they are in a war for their lives and the life of Salafist Islam. Thus, we are in a position where we do not dictate all the terms of the battle field.

Further, I believe such goals as "we knocked Saddam off, time to go home" is simplistic and imagines that this war is something like WWII: we took berlin and hitler is gone, war over. Doesn't work that way and it certainly wouldn't have worked that way if the german army hadn't been completely destroyed or the people and infrastructure not completely devastated nor had a concerted and large insurgency began while we were occupying it.

That being said, all wars are different and I mean nothing by that comparison other than "defined goals" depend on the type of war and enemy, not on arbitrary deadlines or goals we set.

[Matt]

Michele, you are right Bin Laden and the U.S. were on the same side in that conflict but they were not allies.

[SGT Torgersen]

Jimbo,

This looks a lot like the ReplacementsNeeded posters that used to clutter the light, traffic, and electric poles in Seattle. For two years they pasted up some outrageosly anti-military agit-prop material.

I finally took matters into my own hands in 2005.

The URL on my posters is out of date, but feel free to print and slap one of 'em over that Nazi poster next time you're in the store. Let them know someone is paying attention and doesn't appreciate troops being called Nazis.

Hooah.

P.S: ReplacementsNeeded is now essentially out of business. At least in Seattle. The light poles are clean. Thomas Hays was all talk and no walk.

[MrSparkle]

lol, I love those posters SGT!

[MrSparkle]

tyree I think Iraq was an error because it was too much of a dangerous experiment, and too much of a risk - compared to the necessity (as we now know that "necessity" was really a lot of hot air). Although you must consider that I think Islamism was quite over rated, I'm more worried about not cooking chicken properly.

[Michele San Pietro]

In any case, Saddam's overthrow and execution are a positive result in my opinion.

[Kirk]

I am more worried about YOU Mr. Sparkle.

You are the Enemy Within. Because you are more subtle you are indeed more of a threat to the survival of America.

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared." - Cicero, 42 B.C.

[Kirk]

Oh, by the way MrSparkle, Swed pointed out that you are a foreigner.

Therefore, I must correct my statement and say that you don't really worry me. You are just pathetic.

It's your comrades in America that worries me.

[MrSparkle]

I'm not subtle because I don't have an agenda. You are a fringe political extremists who views anybody who does not conform to your extreme opinion as an "enemy".

"Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all"
John W. Gardner

(Whoopsie-daisy, perhaps I shouldn't have quoted a liberal?!)

[Kirk]

Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

[Michele San Pietro]

Unfortunately, there are actually internal traitors in America (e.g. Barbara Ehrenberg), and it is high time for America to smash them.