Memorial Day - How to honor the Real Heroes

Posted By Blackfive

[Bumped up for Memorial Day Weekend]

First, if you are relatively new to Blackfive, you should read this story about a Memorial Day four years ago - Mathew Schram's Memorial Day.

And, unfortunately, we've posted many memorials to our Fallen Americans.

I posted this in 2005:

The words to "Taps" are:

Day Is Done,
Gone the Sun,
From the Earth,
From the Hill,
From the Sky,
All Is Well,
Safely Rest,
God Is Nigh

When Taps is played at dusk, it has a completely different meaning than when Taps is played during the day.  No soldier really wants to hear it played during daylight.  For when the bugle plays Taps in the daylight...that means a soldier has fallen...There is a belief among some that Taps is the clarion call to open the gates of heaven for the fallen warrior and letting them know to "Safely Rest"...

Of course, Memorial Day is about remembering the sacrifices that our military men and women have made over the last 229 years.    We are still a young nation, but one that has made many sacrifices to remain free.  We should also take time to remember the families who have lost loved ones.

We have focused on just a few of the fallen over the last few years.  I've lost three good friends during the War on Terror.  And I write about the others to ensure that we don't forget their sacrifices - I do that for me as much as for anybody.

I can't speak for the friends of the many others who have fallen, but for Mat, Cooter, and Mike, I can say this:

It is important to remember them, and it is just as important to enjoy yourself this weekend.  To spend time with your family and friends.  Have a beer while grilling Wisconsin brats (Schram-bo!) in the backyard while watching your kids play tag. 

What better assurance to them that they did not die in vain?

Enjoying your freedom and understanding it's value is the best way to honor the sacrifices of my friends.

That's the way they'd want you to spend Memorial Day. 

Remembering them, and being a good dad and husband and an American is the best way that I can honor their memory.

I'll close with this heartfelt letter, written by Rick Kennedy, that I received via Seamus about Taylor Prazynski - a Marine who recently was buried at Arlington.

On Saturday morning May 21st I flew to Washington, D.C to meet my daughter Mary with grandchildren Calista and Lindsey, and her husband Joe Teller to drive with them to Chesterfield Virginia to attend a ballet recital for Callie that evening. Joe and Mary were in Washington for the burial services of Lance Corporal Taylor Prazynski USMC the 20 year old son of Joe’s cousin John Prazynski. Taylor was killed by enemy fire in Fallujah on May 9th while serving in combat with the 3rd Battalion, 8th Regiment, and 2nd Marine Division. Mary and Joe, along with 50 other family members attended the burial service for Taylor on Friday at Arlington National Cemetery, and when I met them they remained emotionally overwhelmed and forever moved by the elegant display of military reverence, and efficiency at Arlington. They were deeply saddened by the loss of this young Marine.

Earlier in the week Taylor’s body arrived at the Greater Cincinnati Airport by commercial jet. All passengers were instructed to remain on the plane until Taylor’s body was removed by a contingent of Marines. A military helicopter followed the Marine vehicle as it motored to the funeral parlor. Police and fire trucks were stationed at the overpasses and along the highway and saluted at Taylor passed by. At the funeral parlor no civilian was allowed to touch the body. The Marines prepared the deceased...A Marine color guard followed by a rider less horse accompanied Taylor’s body down Ohio Highway 4 for funeral services at Fairfield High School gym. Over 1500 people were in attendance of the funeral service at the school where the young Marine graduated in 2003, and played football and ran track. Pastor Dave Workman of the Vineyard Community Church presided. He gave a sterling tribute to this fallen hero that gave his life to his country. The pastor praised Taylor for his work with the church’s youth group, and his volunteer work with a multiple-disabilities class while in high school.

At Arlington on May 20th, the seven pall bearers dressed resplendent in the Marine dress blues uniform marched with the flag draped casket with military precision. When they reached the gravesite they abruptly raised the casket above their shoulders for 30 long seconds, giving the fallen Marine salute, and then rested the casket on its conveyor belt support over the grave. The military chaplain in civilian clothes gave the last rites, and presented the family Taylor’s posthumously awarded Purple Heart Medal.

All seven Marines removed the American Flag from the casket. They raised the stars and stripes above the casket pulling the flag rigid like a drum. Then they tightly folded the flag step by step in a triangle with the ends tucked firmly in place. One of the Marines did an about face and presented the flag to the Marine Sergeant standing alone to the rear of the casket, and saluted the flag.. The Marine in charge carrying the flag proceeded to the seat of the father John Prazynski. The Marine knelt down and bowed his head and presented the flag to the grieving father as the final gesture of sympathy and appreciation by the United States Marine Corps for the brave service of this young Marine.

Seven Marines standing away from the proceedings fired their rifles in three volleys representing a 21 gun salute, and you could hear muffled screams of sorrow from the youth in attendance as a lone bugler in Marine dress blues played the sad haunting sound of “Taps’ that echoed across the green rolling plains of Arlington on to the endless stream of white stones in this section called” Iraqi Freedom”. This was the Marines way of sending a signal to God to open the gates of Heaven for the arrival of [Corporal] Prazynski who gave his life for his country and our fight against terror throughout the world.

Remember Them.  And have a great Memorial Day.

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For me, the highlight wasn't the new information, although I was moved by the account of the three friends Matt lost, but the post crystallizes everything that Memorial Day is about. I don't forget that my birth is by God's grace and soldiers' sac... [Read More]

Comments

[rgrmom82]

matt, I can't tell you how much that means to me personally. A beautiful tribute. God bless you and all the fallen and those who fight on for our
country.
xoxoxo
mom

[Miss Ladybug]

We have family coming in from Alaska this weekend. My mom's oldest brother, his wife, and their youngest, as well as his oldest, her husband and their baby come in Saturday. They are staying at Grandma's, but I'm sure we'll be spending time with them. Also, I'll be attending a minor league baseball game. One thing, though - I expect some sort of acknowledgement of the day - the ownership group is supportive of our military and their sacrifices. One year, they had some of the former Marine employees do the rifle, boot & helmet memorial (is there an official name for that?) out in center field prior to the National Anthem being performed (always a performance - singers, choirs, musicians, always live). Another year, a group of local Marine recruits were sworn in. Already this season, they publicly acknowledged a soldier from Fort Hood who was at the game during his 2-week leave from Iraq. Most all of the several thousand fans stood and applauded. I look forward to see what sort of acknowldgement they will do this year.

[DUTCH]

This moved me deeply. Go with God Lance Corporal Prazynski!

[HomefrontSix]

You too, Matt. You too.

[Leonidas Hoplite]

Thanks for the moving account of Taylor Prazynski.

I can't count the number of times I have seen servicemen and women in uniform and thought to myself, I really should thank them. Say something to express my appreciation for their service and sacrifice. But I never did, because the thought of a stranger approaching them and saying something like that sounded so, I don't know, disingenuous? Insincere? Hypocritical?

The last straw came a couple of weekends ago. I was in Washington, DC for a wedding and while there saw an exhibition of military hardware being shown by many men and women in uniform. My son, who is five, had a ball climbing in a Marine light armored vehicle, sitting behind a .50 caliber machine gun, in the back of Humvee with some Rangers, in a SEAL delivery vehicle, and in a Little Bird helicopter. All the while I didn't thank any of them, and it haunted me, that I couldn't muster the courage to maybe embarass myself for a few moments by saying thank you and expressing my appreciation. I vowed the next opportunity that came along I would do it.

So, last weekend I played golf, the most absurd and banal of sports, a sport that I doubt is played very much in countries that aren't free and prosperous, at West Point and the starter sent with out with two cadets, one graduating this week and the other who just completed his freshman year, and the father of the graduating cadet, who is retired Army. At the end of the round, I thanked them, and told them that I am grateful for their service and sacrifice. They were a little surprised, probably because it doesn't happen often enough, but gracious and appreciative. Hopefully I will have many more opportunities to express my thanks to our brave soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen.

Keep up the great work on Blackfive.

[Lands’nGrooves (aka tim)]

We cherish too, the Poppy red
That grows on fields where valor led,
It seems to signal to the skies
That blood of heroes never dies.

Moina Michael

[cold pizza]

Gentlemen and ladies of the mess, a toast--to our fallen comrades!

I played trumpet in high school. During my last 10 years of active duty, I volunteered my services for the base Honor Guard wherever I was stationed. In Utah snow, Alabama heat, Georgia thunderstorms, Hawaiian breeze and California smog, I stood to the side of the firing squad, or sometimes alone when no other Honor Guard was present. For several hours a week (including weekends) it would be my honor to pay respects for those who had served.

It's been a year since my last Taps--for my stepfather. God rest them all. -cp

[LongTabSigO]

There are a number of events in the Hampton Roads, Virginia area. SF Association Chapter 84 will be participating in two:

The first at the Albert G. Horton, Jr. Memorial Veterans Cemetery in Suffolk and second, at Virginia Beach’s Tidewater Veterans Memorial.

The Suffolk ceremony starts at 1000 on Memorial Day. John Marshall, Secretary of Public Safety, Senator Harry Blevins, and Congressman Bobby Scott will be the guest speakers. The cemetery is located at 5310 Milners Road in Suffolk. At the conclusion of the ceremony, Secretary Marshall will place a wreath at the Committal Shelter on behalf of Governor Kaine, followed by other participants. This year the Hampton DAV is running the event.

The Virginia Beach Ceremony is scheduled from 1150 to 1300 at the Tidewater Veterans Memorial located along 19th Street across the street from the new convention center (the end point of the Veterans Day Parade). The keynote speaker is Congresswoman Thelma Drake. The Laying of Wreaths will follow the keynote speaker’s remarks. Citizens that would like to place an American Flag (provided) around the base of the memorial, honoring a relative or friend are encouraged to arrive prior to the commencement of the formal ceremony. A fly-over, weather permitting, featuring military and World War II aircraft will occur immediately following the formal ceremony.

There are numerous other events in honor of those who have given their lives in the service of the country and, if you can not make either of the two where we have active roles, consider one of these:

> Newport News at the Virginia War Museum presents a Memorial Day Remembrance.

> Virginia Beach at the oceanfront, 25-27 May, Remember the Music – Remember the Heroes.

> Hampton has two ceremonies at the Hampton National Cemetery at Hampton University with the TRADOC band at 1000 and at the Hampton National Cemetery – Phoebus Section where members of the Col James D. Brady Camp of the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War will conduct a Memorial Day program at 1100.

> Williamsburg presents a Memorial Day program at Colonial Williamsburg.

I add this note from our Chapter President:
In your own way, remember those that went before us on this most important day. For, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

[Miss Ladybug]

It's also become a tradition of mine to watch the Memorial Day concert on The Mall in DC that PBS brodcasts every year.

[mindy abraham]

I have gotten into the habit of thanking veterans. I have seen a few WWII vets and one vietnam vet. Tehy seem surprised, but appreciate the idea of me thanking them. Also, at an independance day event near me there are active duty people whom I also thank. I will try to always do so.

[Dan]

I think everyone needs to see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ervaMPt4Ha0

It goes perfectly with what you are talking about.......if you don't shed a tear, you aren't an American.

[Dan Meck]

This is a time to remember friends long gone...and those who give their lives today. Amen that we should celebrate life, for this is the gift of freedom that they have provided for us with their sacrifice. So we will have our parades and our cookouts, I will also spend the day at the cemetary at Ft Indiantown Gap, remembering.

[jordan]

With every year, Memorial Day seems to get more profound. We remember and honor all the soldiers who've fought and died for their country. Add a prayer for Todd Beamer of Flt 93, who's father is so proud to to say was KIA in the first battle on the GWOT. He's extremely supportive of the military, perhaps because he recognizes his son's fighting spirit in today's warriors.

[Cincinnati_Bob]

I have no idea how that could be said any better.

[oldguy 8th SFG Abn]

Well done, thank you.

[Military mommy]

What a beautifully written piece about our fallen comrades. Thank you so much for your heart. I would like to link back to this article from my blog on Monday, if that is ok with you.

Blessings, Michelle
PS - came over via Butterfly Wife's blog.

[Barb]

Thanks, Matt. Thanks to you, I remember these fine men who I never was able to meet. I'll tip a cool one to their memory, in thanks. Because of them, we can celebrate freedom.

[Theresa, MSgt (ret), USAF]

Just read this on the Anti-Idiotarian blog.

Unknown USMC

The chaplain wore no helmet,
his head was bowed in prayer.
his face was seamed with sorrow,
but a trace of hope was there.

Our ranks were hushed and silent,
and diminished by our loss.
At our feet, the rows of crosses
told how much a battle cost.

Rows of neat, white wooden crosses
and Stars of David too,
marked the grave sites of our brothers
whose fighting days were through.

Friends of mine were lying there;
Ski, and Ace, and Slim,
Bo, and Jack, Bill and Joe,
Dusty, Tex, and Jim.

Each had a simple marker,
but the closest one to me
was a plain white wooden headboard
marked “Unknown USMC”.

In this final camp of comrades
it was somehow strange and odd,
that a man should lie among them
known to none except his God.

Who can he be, I wondered.
Was he white or black or red?
This man who shares a resting place
with our loved and honored dead.

He cannot be a stranger
but a friend whose lonely track
has brought him here among us.
I think I’ll call him Mac.

Mac is a name we often use,
and it’s been used on me.
Far better than the epitaph,
“Unknown USMC”.

So many times I heard it
in the blackness of the night.
Through the swirling mist of combat,
with a battle at its height.

“Hey Mac” a voice would call,
“We could use some help out here.
I’ve got a man that’s wounded.
Can you get him to the rear?”

“Hey Mac, I’m really burning up.
The suns so blazing hot-
Could you spare a drop of water?
Gee thanks Mac, thanks a lot.”

The day when I was wounded,
hurt and lying in the snow,
a cigarette offered to me
by a man I didn’t know.

He quickly stopped the bleeding
and rolled me on my back,
grinned and gripped his rifle,
and said, “Take it easy Mac”.

A simple word. A simple name.
but still it proves to me,
that no man ever really is
“Unknown USMC”.

The chaplain prayer is finished,
our colors gently dip,
the rifle squad is ready;
the bugler wets his lips.

With blurry eye and saddened heart
I hear the rifles crack.
Taps floats softly on the air
- I say goodbye to Mac

Anonymous

[MrSparkle]

RIP all the fallen soldiers of America. Sometimes I wonder why someone would sacrifice themselves (and inevitably the happiness of their families) for a people whose society is so individualistic and self-serving, because that seems wholly against the grain to me. Well I'll drink to against-the-grain.

[Bill Faith]

Theresa, I'm adding that poem to my Memorial Day roundup as a separate post. I guess if it's copyrighted or something they'll have to hang us side by side.

Bill Faith
USAF 1970-1974
Proud Veteran-American

[jordan]

Perhaps they see with greater clarity than we do the nature of the threat and what will happen here if this enemy isn't defeated. Or, it could be that they have a sense of honor and duty, two quaint notions that some can't begin to understand.

It certainly does go against the grain -- the grain of selfishness, spoiled affluence, and ignorance. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, our country will always have to have the means to defend itself. I would guess that these guys take the torch for something bigger than the feckless, attention-challenged American public.

Ironic, isn't it, that we wonder why they join up and sacrifice on a day when the people of Venezuela are being beaten in the streets as they protest the tightening grip of dictatorship, and when 41 hostages who were tortured are freed by our troops in Iraq, two types of situations in which a selfless military comes in real handy.

[jordan]

The above was ref. to Mr.Sparkle.

[bthun]

Kickin’ Jordan! Amen.

The individual in the United States loves the freedoms of being an individual to the point that many are willing to subordinate their individuality and even their lives in order to preserve those freedoms guaranteed in our Constitution and Bill of Rights for the rest of us.

" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Beautiful is it not, even if it may be hard to understand why our national character runs in such a vein?

[MrSparkle]

Isn't honour and duty superficial? An afterthought for lost buddies and the thanks of a fake population. What does it really mean? Is it just a justification for why someone can die for no self-interested reason: a pointlessness.

They are ideas attached to a position someone accepts freely. Whatever that means. No Virginia farm boy has a duty to go out and protect your society. He does, according to the American ideology, have a duty to his family and to his happiness - and their welfare is jeopardized by joining the military. So he fails?

Then call me crazy but does he sign up because he loves the United States so-damn-much? Or does he sign up because he likes the benefits and the job? No soldier thinks they are going to die! Nobody willingly sacrifices!

Call me cynical but I don't buy this crap. The espoused honour and glory is superficial and out-of-turn with the real American ideology. Whenever anybody dies, everyone jumps onto the honour wagon to circle the track 100 times and squeeze lemons. It's typical American Bravo Sierra!

Perhaps after college I will become a soldier. Somehow I doubt I will ever buy it that your soldiers, or many of anywhere fight for selfishness and spoiled affluence, for your self-interested society that gives them no benefit. They probably fight for their friends and for absurdity and for nothing. I bet they are too embarrassed when they see your fat ass telling them how great they are to tell you where to shove it.

[bthun]

sprinkle, you are a sad little person...

and I am truly astounded how you were able to see this old 6'3" 200 lb fat arse all the way from your little sad little cynical perspective.

[rgrmom82]

My isn't he special. Yes you have the right to be a punk, spookle, because generations of people
spilled blood for this country.

Honor and glory are superficial?

Go play with your ipod, punkin, while we remember our warriors.

[TantheBlackhearted]

God Bless our Military, and stop and give a moment's thought to those that gave it all.

In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918)
Canadian Army
IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

[arch]

On March 5th, 1945 my father, 1LT Arch Hurt Seewald, was killed in the War.

As an infantry officer, he was no stranger to combat. He landed on Omaha Beach and was severely wounded in the hedgerow fighting. He pushed his way through rehab to get back into the fight the way many current soldiers do. His Purple Heart, he sent to me when I was 5 months old.

In late November 1944, when he returned to the 1st Infantry Division in Aachen, they were holding on to the first major German city captured by the allies. Weeks later, the Germans launched the Ardennes Offensive (Battle of the Bulge) where he was again wounded, but refused to be evacuated. They held.

Through the bitter winter of 1944-45, he and his men moved forward slowly against the Nazis. Six weeks before the war in Europe was over he was caught in the open in an artillery barrage and killed.

Weeks after the telegram arrived in Birmingham, his letters were still comng. Mother, at age 23, was in denial. For weeks, she saw men on the street she thought were her husband.

When I remember Memorial day, I think of the men who left a life of peace, wealth and privilege to protect their native land and I thank God such men still live in America.

[Ymarsakar]

Isn't honour and duty superficial?

That mountain over there is superficial.

Call me cynical but I don't buy this crap.

Can't buy honor and spiritual power. But you can buy honour, maybe.

[NoParty]

***Isn't honour and duty superficial?***
***Call me cynical but I don't buy this crap.***

I didn't know John Kerry frequented these blogs....

[MrSparkle]

I do respect soldiers and their bravery, it's bravery I aspire to.

The problem with accepting honour in America is your ideology appears to run in opposition. Perhaps the military community must be a hub of insane individuals who are unamerican!

When the US finally moves from a standing military to having corporations control your armed forces it will become more apparent.

rgrmom82 don't call me a punk, I don't think I am one!

[jordan]

Any person who feels he doesn't have an obligation to defend the society he lives in is perfectly free to not join the military, and simply live off the exertions of better men than himself -- as most of us do. Nobody forced today's soldiers to sign up. They saw a greater good in contributing to the defense of their country in these dangerous times, and heard a call to duty. Others have their ears plugged up, and don't hear any call to duty.

None of us really has a duty to protect our society. We enter into a "social contract" with our government, and with each other. It allows us to better our lives while the government takes the burden of basic essentials -- like defense and trash pickup -- off our hands. In return, individuals repay their civic responsibility to the "collective" in different ways, the military being one.

When you repay your society for the safety, security and quality of life it provides, you're serving the greater good. If you believe the principles of this society deserve defending, even if some of the people don't, you contribute and even sacrifice. But I can see how the idea of honor and duty this deep might be an alien concept to alot of people.

BTW, my ass is gorgeous. There's no fat on it whatsoever.

[rgrmom82]

Anybody who comes to a memorial thread on a milblog to misdirect the converstation is a punk.

I call em as I see em.

[MrSparkle]

I don't mean to misdirect the conversation rgrmom. I already said I think soldiers are great. I was just talking about one dimension of their service and relating it to America.

I never said that honour and duty do not exist period! I'm not saying that they are bad things either.

Jordan I would have agreed with you once, but I think that's an over idealistic view of modern society. As an individual solider what are you protecting? What benefit has any of it been to you - aren't you exploited by everybody else.

[MrSparkle]

N.B. and I am honestly asking questions - I'm not trolling because I don't know the answers, and I'm not sure about the truth of my statements either

[Ymarsakar]

The problem with accepting honour in America is your ideology appears to run in opposition.

If you never understood what beliefs powered America, then yes of course it might oftentimes seem to run in direct opposition.

When you repay your society for the safety, security and quality of life it provides, you're serving the greater good.

i don't think of it as paying for society, more like paying for the next generation's tuition and food costs/debts. Like the previous generations have paid for yours. Except we're not talking about education, but survival, prosperity, freedom, security, etc.

BTW, my ass is gorgeous. There's no fat on it whatsoever.

Posted by: jordan | May 29, 2007 6:44:39 AM

That came out of nowhere for me, but it was funny nonetheless.

What benefit has any of it been to you - aren't you exploited by everybody else.

It is only exploitation when you believe as Marx believed, that nobody is in charge of their fate, predestination rules our destinies, and that when soldiers committ their lives and health to the military and the military pays them back in pride, salt, money, rice, education, skills, and honor, that this automatically means the military and the Americans are exploiting soldiers.

Capitalism works on free will and those who freely go into contracts, combined with the judicious enforcement of such contracts to the letter. Marxism and its offshoots believe in racial or class predestination, the former for Nazis. America doesn't agree with your Sparkie, and that is just how it is.

N.B. and I am honestly asking questions

Thanks for clearing that up. Americans like to take their fate in their ends, that is why they don't see it as exploitation.

Individuals soldiers in America's armed forces protect the vitality and safety of future generations, whether those future generations be American or not.

This crap, as I said, cannot be bought. It is earned, earned by those who freely enter into a contract and work to fullfill it. They do not buy out of it, nor do they buy into it. It is why soldiers have to serve their 4 years and their years in the Reserve. It is a contractual obligation, connected directly with Word of Honor used in the past. One cannot "pay enough" and buy out of the contract limitations. It is not about money, but about honor. Marx thought society was based upon goods, productivity, money, and property. Capitalism thinks society should be based upon free will, law, personal ownership of property, personal increase in wealth and a person's word to do his duty. Whether that duty is fullfilling contract obligations, not doing crime, or not killing.

[Ymarsakar]

The problem with accepting honour in America is your ideology appears to run in opposition.

If you never understood what beliefs powered America, then yes of course it might oftentimes seem to run in direct opposition.

When you repay your society for the safety, security and quality of life it provides, you're serving the greater good.

i don't think of it as paying for society, more like paying for the next generation's tuition and food costs/debts. Like the previous generations have paid for yours. Except we're not talking about education, but survival, prosperity, freedom, security, etc.

BTW, my ass is gorgeous. There's no fat on it whatsoever.

Posted by: jordan | May 29, 2007 6:44:39 AM

That came out of nowhere for me, but it was funny nonetheless.

What benefit has any of it been to you - aren't you exploited by everybody else.

It is only exploitation when you believe as Marx believed, that nobody is in charge of their fate, predestination rules our destinies, and that when soldiers committ their lives and health to the military and the military pays them back in pride, salt, money, rice, education, skills, and honor, that this automatically means the military and the Americans are exploiting soldiers.

Capitalism works on free will and those who freely go into contracts, combined with the judicious enforcement of such contracts to the letter. Marxism and its offshoots believe in racial or class predestination, the former for Nazis. America doesn't agree with your Sparkie, and that is just how it is.

N.B. and I am honestly asking questions

Thanks for clearing that up. Americans like to take their fate in their ends, that is why they don't see it as exploitation.

Individuals soldiers in America's armed forces protect the vitality and safety of future generations, whether those future generations be American or not.

This crap, as I said, cannot be bought. It is earned, earned by those who freely enter into a contract and work to fullfill it. They do not buy out of it, nor do they buy into it. It is why soldiers have to serve their 4 years and their years in the Reserve. It is a contractual obligation, connected directly with Word of Honor used in the past. One cannot "pay enough" and buy out of the contract limitations. It is not about money, but about honor. Marx thought society was based upon goods, productivity, money, and property. Capitalism thinks society should be based upon free will, law, personal ownership of property, personal increase in wealth and a person's word to do his duty. Whether that duty is fullfilling contract obligations, not doing crime, or not killing.

[jordan]

No, I don't believe soldiers are being exploited when they defend their country. However, they can be undermined and betrayed by their own side.

I can only answer for two soldiers I know currently in harm's way. They're not helpless victims. They weren't duped. They're strong, smart, independent men who see that a necessary job has to get done, and willingly attack the challenge.

[bthun]

Apparently typepad ate my classwork the first time I attempted to post this... so take 2:

Now that Memorial Day has passed, I'll take a little more time with you.

"N.B. and I am honestly asking questions - I'm not trolling because I don't know the answers, and I'm not sure about the truth of my statements either"

Well fair enough. I have a couple of questions for you. IIRC you’re a Brit right?

Now to the comment that I thought was telling:

"Then call me crazy but does he sign up because he loves the United States so-damn-much? Or does he sign up because he likes the benefits and the job? No soldier thinks they are going to die! Nobody willingly sacrifices!"

So here you ask two questions and then you make two assertions based on what? The vast knowledge you have accrued based upon your studies and your life experience with those who serve something other than themselves? Or maybe from conversations with older folk or from what you have read in newspapers?

To be clear, I can speak for no one other than those I know or have known personally and for myself of course. However, my old man and two of my uncles signed up for no good reason other than to save you, your parents, and grandparents from Adolf, El Duce, and the Emperor... That is if my recollection that you are a Brit is correct. If not, then the point remains that they volunteered to fight bad people. They sacrificed and they damned well knew that they could be forfeiting everything. And let me tell you something else, they sure didn't do it for the money, the benefits, or for any reason other than, as my dad told me, his perceived need to do something to help. In other words, they well knew what they were getting into but they did so anyway.

I'll not bore you with why my brother or I volunteered a long time ago, your cynical view of US citizens would not allow you to believe it anyway.

Going a little further into this whole US with motivations trash, I will add that not only did United States citizens spend our treasure fighting for and defending a free Europe in the 40’s (see the story above of Arch’s father and multiple his loss by tens of thousands of US lives) but also in the nineteen’s and during the Cold War our nation stabilized and protected Europe. IIRC we also spent billions of US taxpayer revenue on the rebuilding of Europe post WWII. How many evil empires populated by self-centered evil people would do that? Did you ever hear of the Marshall Plan?

Do you believe that my nation received any repayment on our generosity?

I hope you will pardon me if my first inclination is to tell a European to visit that place where the sun does not shine especially when all that most of the people of Europe seem qualified and capable of doing is shooting off their collective mouths telling my nation how effed up me and mine are.

Almost every time you comment sprinkle I detect in you an animosity directed towards the United States based on what? First hand exposure to the people of this country or the news you are fed? Consider the context.

That you do not understand American patriots is no surprise to me, but I would invite you to have the decency to not tell us who we are or think you know what motivates us. That is, if you possess the honesty to review your preconceptions or, dare I say, if you possess any modicum of honor?

[MrSparkle]

Cheers for replies.

Ymarsakar as I have told you on countless occasions now I am not a Marxist (not that you are calling me one but in case there is a certain ambiguity). Have you by chance read starship troopers by Robert Heinlein?

There is probably a wikipedia page on it, but in short he creates a society based upon a limited democracy where sacrifice to society gains you a democratic voice - and constantly alludes to how contemporary democracy is bankrupt.

I don't know what you are talking about in that Capitalism/Marxist comparison. What about Reagan and onward - and their adoption of Friedrich von Hayek and Milton Friedman's monetary economics? The adoption of the rational actor in modern economics, and about how this is also merged into modern politics. Have you read anything on public choice theory that the politicians ate up - the rejection of duty as zealous and the adoption of self-interest as paramount to protecting the liberty of society. It's not a healthy view of the human being and it's not a healthy system - at least I don't think so. People are treated like maximising agents, and the health of the system is gauged in terms of how well they play that role.

For a long time I've argued against myself about which is better, absolute liberty or virtue. I clearly have a huge bias for the armed forces and that spirit of mutual sacrifice and community, but as I have said that runs against the grain of the general society, which is based upon an economic imagine of the individual self-maximiser. It's not in Marxism then that you get this image. The honouring of soldiers is clearly superficial. When they get injured in defence of their glorious country they seem to get treated with f**king disgrace. The MOD in the UK are terrible, they treat all wounded servicemen as problems to be gotten rid of. From what I've seen it's often similar in the US.

On the US military I think that the US army sells an image of heroics and honour to potential recruits. Although they are great men (and women) the system they fight for appears bankrupt. They take a dutiful role and protect 'the deaf' - why?

Jordan, I'm sure they are, but I think they are just protecting what they have been told is beautiful since their birth.

[MrSparkle]

bthun, cheers for the reply.

I was effectively referring to modern soldiers who are voluntary fighters not to WW2.

WW2 generation were amazing, and the American soldiers who fought to aid Britain aren't forgotten over here (although we prefer to view it as the world vs. the fascists, opposed to Europe [with the saving grace of America] vs. their troublesome neighbours). I do not dislike American people either. Also, don't forget that US did manage to benefit to an incredible extent economically from WW2 and it's one of the reasons you are so rich today. We also paid you back for the war loans from WW2 which only just finished a few months ago. So... we're square!

I am very preceptive to what you are saying though. You are older and wiser.

[AFSister]

It's ironic that you posted about Taylor, because I was going to write about him too. Being a Cincinnati girl, I remember his death all too well- not to mention the fact that I've met his dad recently. But that's not why I was going to write about him. I was going to write about stumbling across his grave at Arlington while at the Milblog Conf this year. It was shocking to see it there in front of me, in black and white. I laid a cigar on his headstone, cried, and said my prayers. It was a simple moment, but one I'll never forget.

[Ymarsakar]

The adoption of the rational actor in modern economics, and about how this is also merged into modern politics.

I am familiar with Milton Friedman and I read Starship Troopers.

Milton Friedman can be most accurately described as a Hamiltonian in his political make up, for he believed that personal wealth makes people free by by unlocking their potential and breaking restrictions upon a person's desires.

The economic system does not provide an ironclad hierarchy to accomplish that, he just wanted free markets. So that people, all people, could choose, both by contributing and consuming.

It is the difference between economics and morality, they are not the same What is economically viable may not be ethically valid, but Milton had valid marks in both cases.

There is no liberty when the state is the provider of everyone's goods and salaries. There must be competition for in competition may the Good truly shine. Ethically speaking, that is one of the same principles behind war, that when two sides compete against the other by attempting to annihilate and defeat the other, the best side wins. Most of the time anyways.

People are treated like maximising agents, and the health of the system is gauged in terms of how well they play that role.

When I say Marxism I'm basically talking about what you just said. Except you attribute it to free market economics, and I attribute it to socialist economics. And therein lies the difference. Because free market economics, whether partial or just capitalistic in tone, was something Marxist always believed was unhealthy.

but as I have said that runs against the grain of the general society, which is based upon an economic imagine of the individual self-maximiser.

Soldiers are not absolute altruists who simply throw their lives away for no gain. They receive economic, social, and ethical support, or they would otherwise not be who they are. They are the best examples of the individual self-maximizer, for their goal truly is and must be self-actualization. Because only the strong and the individual that is at their maximum, may be able to fight well.

It just tends to be on a paradoxical level, that the strongest human beings also tend to have values that don't focus at all on themselves. Ultimate strength is thus calculated not in what benefits oneself, nor its risks, but the benefit or risk to the goal, the mission.

It's not in Marxism then that you get this image.

What image, the image that people are treated as agents that must play their "roles", proletariant or otherwise, for the system to be healthy? I think that's a great image for Marxism.

The honouring of soldiers is clearly superficial.

Only if you assume as an a priori that the philosophical principles that power the economies of Milton and what not, are incompatible with the values of the United States military.

The MOD in the UK are terrible, they treat all wounded servicemen as problems to be gotten rid of.

I can't speak for the UK, but the worst problem wounded servicemen and women face here in the US is bad bureacracy, corrupt bureacracy, or just slow bureacracy. And those problems once exposed, tend to be concentrated on for a solution by politicians and citizens alike.

They take a dutiful role and protect 'the deaf' - why?

Why do soldiers protect Hollywood? Because you don't get to choose whom you protect or not as a soldier. Duty to the nation means duty to all, simply because you can't eject people you don't like from the nation on whim.

Also, don't forget that US did manage to benefit to an incredible extent economically from WW2 and it's one of the reasons you are so rich today.

The United States has always been able to benefit from Total Wars. It is a national trait and gift. To the victor goes the spoils, must have been literally written for the US. The US has made the after-math of war profitable because it has spent so much during that war and spent it quite well. Russia lost 97% of an entire generation in WWII. Inefficient allocation of resources.

Whatever benefit the US accrued, it was due to the efficiency that they fought their wars with and ended them with. Macarthur being an example of how to end wars well.

[jordan]

Whatever financial benefits were gained from those wars were also due to the fact that we won .

[bthu]

"bthun, cheers for the reply.

I was effectively referring to modern soldiers who are voluntary fighters not to WW2."

I understand, but I was writing about the core character of the United States citizen. Most of those people today do not differ significantly IMHO, from those who stepped up to fight the bad guys in the pevious century. It requires the same character IMO. I think we still have an abundance of that same stout character in a large portion of the people of this nation.

You can see that character every day in those serving in uniform and in those working at home and abroad to keep our country strong. Without a doubt they are bound to their families, and to a desire to prosper, but there is also a sense that when our nation is threatened, or attacked, we circle the wagons, together as Americans.

Of course there are exceptions, the perpetual anti-anything-American, the sell-their-mothers-for-greed, those who would sell out anyone or anything for personal gain and so on... but those people exist everywhere on the planet and do not typically nor have they ever been the ones to put forward the assistance in both money and blood that the people of my nation have offered time and again the world over.

Regarding the volunteer military and the basic character of the people of this nation, I’d venture to say that if we are attacked on our soil again, you will see not only a military ready to go to work at the direction of our elected leaders, but I would guess that there would be an additional 300 million extremely angry citizens who would not be quite so reasonable, restrained or charitable as was seen this last go-round. That is something that all involved would do well to consider at length.

As in WWII if the need arises and the age of service again approaches 50 or more, it might be surprising to see how many 50+ fat arsed people like me who would be willing and able, to varying degrees as dictated by nature, qualifications, and mileage, to fill in the spaces that would need filling. Yep, the world might be shocked to see how many fit, healthy and angry old fat arsed Joe’s are waiting in the wings for an opportunity to kick some butt.

"WW2 generation were amazing, and the American soldiers who fought to aid Britain aren't forgotten over here (although we prefer to view it as the world vs. the fascists, opposed to Europe [with the saving grace of America] vs. their troublesome neighbours)."

Yes the WWII generation was amazing and I'll not spilt hairs with you concerning the European powers and their roles in the two world wars.

I do not dislike American people either. Also, don't forget that US did manage to benefit to an incredible extent economically from WW2 and it's one of the reasons you are so rich today."

Industrial expansion along with expanded employment (Rosie the riveter) from the war did kick start the US economy. As did post war industrial expansion, the open(ing of) markets, and as Jordan points out, winning the war did not hurt any of that. I would go a little further in saying that we in the United States versus most other developed nations, work longer hours, more days during each year, take fewer vacations and have not only innovated but exploited/marketed innovation in many cases better than others in the developed world. All of which has contributed to our wealth as a nation and as individuals.

We also paid you back for the war loans from WW2 which only just finished a few months ago. So... we're square!

And proud I am that the UK did repay the loans. The US has for various reasons forgiven much debt owed to her (taxpayers). Not including the billions of foreign aid that the US provides every year.

"I am very preceptive to what you are saying though. You are older and wiser."

Heh, older no doubt... The rest is without doubt open to debate.

All I am saying is that our people, those who step up from all walks of life, from all economic stations, and all levels of education deserve respect for their commitment to our nation. That is true every day but especially true on Memorial Day and Veterans Day.

I have no shame in saying that I am proud of our service members and those who support them. I say that for no reason other than I understand and respect what it takes to do what they do.

I get more than just a little PO'ed when I perceive disrespectful yapping and/or actions by those who contribute little to nothing more than disrespectful yapping and/or actions towards our people who are in a bad situation, a situation in which they had no say. Further, I can assume with more than a little confidence that not one of our people wanted to put our nation’s warriors and treasury into a war, but after essentially ignoring the menace of the radical ROP animals for more than 30 years, we found ourselves in the position of having a war forced on us by the bad actors who claim to have a special insight into the ROP.

FWIW, I am glad to hear that you do not have the typical hate America attitude and if you do choose to become a warrior for your nation, you might have your world view come more into alignment with many other vets.

In any event, best regards.

My 2 cents.

[bthun]

Regrets for typo's and thoughts gramatically askew... I seem to be rather busy of late, for an old fat arse anyway. =8-}