The Reverse Crusades

Posted By Blackfive

"The Reverse Crusades"

That's what some of my friends still in the Special Ops community have been calling the War on Terror since 9/11 (and maybe since Khobar - I just may not have been paying attention).  We're fighting the crusaders this time - crusaders that want us either converted to their religion or dead. 

And our fear and unwillingness to fight in various ways may be our undoing.

Osama and his murderers want to drive a wedge between the West and Islam, and guess what?

It's working.

Believe me, there's times where this slightly right of center guy wants to say to the Islamic world, "You want a fight?  Good!  You've got one." (Just insert a few choice expletives and you've pretty much got it.)

Then on other days, you have people like me on this blog asking sincerely, "where are the moderate Muslims speaking out against these atrocities, or denouncing these violent riots attacking American embassies over cartoons published in Denmark, or working towards reform for women or religious tolerance in their countries?", you get some commenter who weighs in with two or four links of quotes from moderate Muslims.

That doesn't quite cut it.  They either aren't there or aren't being heard (thanks, media!).

But rational, tolerant people do live in Muslim countries.  I know they do.  I have friends in Turkey, Jordan, India, and Indonesia (and here in the States) that are socially liberal moderates who are devoutly Muslim.  Not to mention muslim soldiers of countries that I've served with and trained with...And they are terrified of both the extremists in their lands and our deaf ears here in the States.

How in the hell did we get here?

You can blame our media for displaying the worst of the Islamic extremists daily (and for bowing to the pressure of the worst of them - they're cartoons for crying out loud), and you can also blame the theocracies for feeding the blood lust and keeping their followers uneducated and duped in order to retain or build power.  You can blame their governments for not protecting the moderates and the socially liberal among their societies.  You can blame the rich oil sheiks for playing geopolitical games with their billions.  And you can blame the moderates themselves for being cowards, much like the cowards in our own country who acquiesce at the first sign of a fight - whether that fight is taking down a murdering tyrant or cow-towing to the Politically Correct Police.

Glenn Reynolds wrote an excellent short piece on Sunday about the Tipping Point where Americans just don't trust (all) Muslims anymore.  Apparently, we've had enough.

Have we?

Have we had enough BS from the extremists to taint our feelings towards every Muslim in the world?  Have we let the media influence us so?

I doubt it, but that's the story that's being told now.

This Tipping Point just points out that Osama is winning as long as we let him drive that wedge between us and the Islamic world.  He's got the media figured out.  He's got the right people in place in the theocracies.  We've given that bastard enough ground already in the Reverse Crusades.

After the first crusaders took Jerusalem in the eleventh century, a Kurd Sunni from Tikrit by the name of Saladin took it and much of the crusader gained territory back.  Saladin, even seen as a conquering enemy, was revered by European courts for his grace, kindness and intelligence.  They regarded him as a Knight.  In actuality, he embodied more of the gentle and honorable traits of a Knight than most of the European gentry sent off to rid the world of non-Christians.

In the Reverse Crusades, our Saladin is not a "who", but a "what".  Our Saladin must be the idea that all men and women were created equal and free.

We need to wage both war and peace at the same time.  Both require strength of will, both require passion and understanding.  Both require love.  And both require that we understand that some people just need their chops busted AND some people need to be protected.

The Clash of Civizations has not occurred yet, but it is coming.  It.is.coming.

Don't let that sonofabitch Osama win.

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Comments

[Nicholas]

A-bloody-men.

Bravo.

Standing ovation.

You nailed it!

[Paula]

Well put.

[chris]

Dead on. Great Post!

and for some levity...
http://www.ucomics.com/glennmccoy/2006/02/16/

[Roach]

First, the crusades were not a bad thing, but a war of defense waged by Christians to defend their coreligionists in the Middle East who were harassed by Muslim invaders. Far from this being the reverse crusades, this is a bit like the real ones, but here, unlike the 11th Century, we lack the cultural self-confidence to say that our religion and our way of life will not be transformed by outsiders.

Second, what we're seeing in the middle east is the crashing down of liberal idealism. This is a clash of civilizations; we have different identities, values, etc. This is not something to be averted; it is reality. We can try to limit the damage and lower the stakes, but so long as we involve ourselves with them or let these people into our countries we're going to have problems. Civilizational conflict is not a matter of opinion polls and the quiscent majorities. The vanguards are what matters, and the extremists have the massive edge among Muslims worldwide.

I'm not a liberal. I don't think all people everywhere are the same. To me this is the heart of conservatism: Not everyone is like us, they don't all want the same things, and their cultures and history may present serious obstacles to our Wilsonian democracy-installation efforst. I think there's a persuasive case to be made that Islam is inimical to a free society because of its uncompromising nature and its complete code of behavior does not leave any place for human imagination. I don't think it's shameful that we defend our civilization, and I don't think our cause is rendered less just because some primitive foreigners do not want or cannot handle the kinds of political and social institutions we've become accustomed to. I certainly don't think "we're losing" if some Arabs and Muslims don't like us. Most have never liked us, and they've been at war with us in some fashion or another since their beginnings, e.g., Tours, Vienna, the Maghrib, etc.

If I may quote blogger Lawrence Auster:

"Thus: For us, democracy is compatible with civilized norms of conduct, therefore it should also be so for the Palestinians. But it’s not.

"Thus: We believe that an organization devoted to waging terror war to destroy a sovereign nation is a bad thing that should be shunned, therefore Arab potentates should believe it too. But they don’t.

"Thus: In America we don’t need a dictator to keep different religious denominations from killing each other and blowing up each other’s churches, therefore the Iraqis shouldn’t need one either. But they do.

"And thus: “We”—meaning Bush and Rice and their fellow globalist elites—take it as a matter of course that Arabs are just as safe a bet for handling U.S. ports as any other national group, and therefore all Americans should feel the same. But they don’t.

"With that last example, the pattern I thought I had found changes in an interesting way. It’s not that non-Americans turn out to be different from Americans, it’s that most Americans, and most of the human race, are different from Bush and Rice and the elites that support them. When it comes to the false, extreme, and destructive idea that humanity consists of a mass of interchangeable units sharing the same desires for freedom and democracy, there is only one group in the world that truly believes it—our rulers. So rigid is their faith in this false vision of humanity that even when it comes crashing down around them, as recounted in the above article, they can’t see it. Like ideological zombies, they keep smugly repeating the same formulae."

So true. This kind of crusading democracy-loving liberal gobbeldy gook is not conservatism and, more important, has little relatinoship to reality and is hurting our interests and experiencing failure throughout the Middle East. Let's just defend ourselves without apology and remember that war is not a favor we do for other people but a favor we do for our own future generations. I don't expect Muslims to like us, the pressure we're putting on their governments, the indignities we're subjecting the prisoners at Gitmo too, etc. Who would? I simply expect these things to work in one way or another to disrupt our enemies efforts and put them in fear of us. We'd be better off if we remembered that war is not a favor you do for other people.

[chris]

Oh...and another one...
http://www.uclick.com/client/zzz/gm/2006/01/13/

[Theresa, MSgt, USAF (ret)]

I "borrowed" the below from Delftsman3, Émigré with a Digital Clue Bat. It hits the nail on the head for me. If you are a true believer of the faith, you are taught to kill all non-believers. How do you get around that? A moderate muslim is like a truthful politician, no such species exists.

“During the training session for maintaining my state prison security clearance, there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief systems.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video.

After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.

When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"

The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine the Pope commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven.

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.”

[EXDemocrat]

Roach,

What about the millions of people in ME, who do want freedom and democracy? They do exist you know? Just leave them to be crushed and slaughtered by their governments, that we have "pressured"?

[jordan]

We do have to get over this notion that defending our country and culture, asserting proud American nationalism, and minimizing the chances that we'll be blown up, are in some way racist. Our reticence to do so has already gotten us into this current threat environment. That has to change.
Embracing moderate Muslims and the positive aspects of their culture into the American mainstream includes civil education in the "Magna Carta" principles of contract between government and peoples. New immigrants need to be immersed in that philosophy, as well as the English language, and it should be a prerequisite to citizenship. That kind of civil education should be mandatory for anyone seeking the high privilege of American citizenship.
One of the reasons the U.S. is so disrespected is that we don't respect our own culture, and can't be bothered to lift a finger in its defense. When did the principles of freedom the U.S. is based on become inferior to autocracies, monarchies and totalitarians?
As far as relationships with other countries, I would jettison the hearts and minds idea, and go with Machiavelli: it is better to be feared than loved.

[Shivan]

I second Roach. The Crusades were a defensive war against Islamic expansion from the 7th - 11th centuries that swallowed up huge tracts of the Byzantine Empire and, millions of Christians and Jews along with it. Then, the Jews and Christians were subjugated resulting in dhimmitude, eventually, conversion to Islam.

Great reads: Andrew G. Bostom, The Legacy of Jihad, (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2005); Bat Ye’or, The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam (Teaneck, NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson Univ. Press, 1996) and; Bat Ye’or, Islam and Dhimmitude (Teaneck, NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson Univ. Press, 2002.

[Roach]

Exdemocrat, if they're to be successful, they'll have to secure democracy for themselves. Only then can we be assured there is significant consensus to allow such a product to succeed. More important, I'm not so sure that this will always be good for the US. What if they elect a Hamas in a properly supervised election? What will supporters of democracy say then?

We've seen these kinds of results in Palestine, in Algeria, and in Egypt. In a screwed up primitive society, democracy may not be the answer. For it to work, it depends upon consensus and across-the-board commitment to certain liberal ideas, which is lacking in those societies.

And why should we be so sure that our efforts to "impose" democracy will not be met with resentment and anger. It's natural in any kind of military intervention that things will get broken, innocents killed and wrongly arrested, etc. We suceeded in providing a democratic model in part in Eatsern Europe because we did not intervene militarily. In contrast, our interventions in Latin America have left a significant amount of resentment in countries like Honduras, Chile, etc. So I think even if we have good intentions, odds are well make things worse by our interventions. This is the logic of history. For every Germany and Japan--who were throughly defeated in wars where we did not imagine ourselves to be doing them any favors--there are many more examples of failed interventions such as Vietnam or the Dominican Republic or Haiti.

[tommy in nyc]

I think we have a split in opinions here in comment thread. Thersea and Roach seem to have the attitude that based solely on religion alone there will never be peace between the West and Islamic world where as Ex-Democrat seems to believe that millions of muslims are truly fed up living under tyranny. Honestly this liberal is between both thoese polarizing positions. Living under tyranny for decades with mess with your mind IMHO. But the only outlet the citizens of the Islamic world had to vent their frustrations had was the mosque. So it shouldn't surprise anybody that Hamas and the Iranian backed Shia Cleric candidates won in Iraq. Or how Mubarak in Egypt prevented the people for voting for the Muslim brotherhood,etc,etc,etc........ Osama started a small but very violent and dangerous movement we shouldn't delude ourselves for a moment that it will go away anytime soon. My hope is that a better more material way of life free from fear of expressing oneselves political is the only solution to combat this threat. The paradox is when the people elect a Cleric type government all dissent is banished. Bottom line is that might 1 year old nephew might have to fight these clowns when he becomes of military age which makes me sad.

[Roach]

Since when does peace require a comprehensive solution. THis is like the liberal thinking on crime that eschews putting crooks in jail and says, instead, we should address root causes. The root cause of this conflict and its continuation is manifold, but it will last longer and be less likely to go away the more we decide to involve ourselves in the Middle East "for their own good." We don't live next door to these people. We don't need to let them in our countries. We can deal with them at arm's length with the occasional punitive raid.

[EXDemocrat]

There are ever growing numbers of young people in the ME, who want freedom and democracy. Undeniably, their voices are clamped down by the iron grips of the dictatorships that rule them. But through the wonders of modern technology, their voices are increasingly being heard.

Nobody ever thought this would be easy. But, the easy way out not only dooms the future of these young people, but will ultimately doom ours.

An example is Iran. There is more and more information managing to somehow get out from there. Groups of young Iranians who absolutely hate the Mullahs and the Theocracy.

Unfortunately, the messages that a lot of us get on a regular basis does not support this. But, they are there.

Somehow the iron grip needs to be released. Threats of inprisonment and death are a very good silencer. But, the young people are growing tired and weary of it and they are beginning to stir.

I believe that our hope may lie in those young people who have not been "brainwashed". I don't claim to have an answer to this. But, I also do not believe that "leaving them alone" is the answer.

[jtb-in-texas]

This is really very simple. And while I think I agree with Roach, I'm not sure--I got lost in the arguments and don't have time to fight that fight. Apologies to Roach and anyone who gets lost in my logic.

Our enemies are not necessarily All Moslems; but they are also not necessarily our friends. We are still fighting the Totalitarian Twins.
--The Nazis were killed off in Germany; but survived in Islamic lands and South America. The necessity of a separate Jewish State is patently obvious. Christians and Jews tend to believe God gave them the land. Moslems are conditioned to see other Moslems as a higher form of life than Infidels (to be killed whenever found), Jews (to be hunted down and killed), and Christians (to be enslaved and humiliated or killed). Non-Moslems are the new untermenschen
--The Communists of the Soviet Union and most of their Eastern European satellites were converted to democracies; but various forms of communism and socialism survive all over the world. And they're smart enough to handle the press (who is typically them) so anyone who opposes the Revolution is "racist, sexist, anti-gay" or whatever the current slogans are.

Unless this "Saladin" B5 has proposed exposes our ancient enemies for who and what they are--and is capable of turning the majority of the West away from the mirror in which we study ourselves with ever so narcissistic ecstacy--we will become lampshades, landfill, or dhimmi.

I see heroes all the time (of course I feel that way about all of the active-duty and honorably-discharged soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines); but as all of you military men and women know, it takes more than heroes to win a war. We need to take back our schools and protect our children...

[rjschwarz]

Bin Laden was right about Islam when he said that bit about people follow the strong horse. Moderate Muslims are still waiting to be 100% certain which is the strong horse before choosing a sides.

My opinion of Muslims has changed. I don't think they are all evil or bad, but I think the bulk of them are spineless for waiting on the sidelines and letting others determine their future. Along with that comes the sad feeling that perhaps *their* future may not be worth fighting for.

[jordan]

I don't think the two civilizations are doomed to be constantly warring with each other. A stable modus vivendi can be reached with sufficient will, strength and reason on both sides. If those factors exist, today's adversaries could be peacefully kept at arm's length, and that would be sufficient for our purpose: to maintain a safe American way of life for our children. In the end, what else is there?

Even in this global, intertwined economy, its possible.

As far as immigrants from foreign cultures coming here, B5's "Saladin" idea has to be taught and accepted by them or they simply can't remain in American society. The principles of equality, freedom of the individual, separation of church and state, the vision of the founding fathers -- if any of these is a problem, America is not the place for you.

As we've seen in Palestine and Egypt, when those cultural values are not reinforced and ingrained, you get unwanted results. You can't overlay an election bandaid over a society built on tyranny and forced obedience, and seething with anger.

Do I want to commit lives so all the world can be free? No. And as long as they're not trying to kill us, or trying to take over the country (even if quietly using our own free system to do it), that's a fine way to leave things.

[Rich Casebolt]

"When it comes to the false, extreme, and destructive idea that humanity consists of a mass of interchangeable units sharing the same desires for freedom and democracy, there is only one group in the world that truly believes it—our rulers."

I wonder what the "rulers" who wrote the following, would think of your viewpoint, Roach:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

"--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

"--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

If they had agreed with you ... well, we wouldn't be living in these United States.

I know what I think of your viewpoint -- it is the foundation for an ongoing and needless war of attrition, between people here and abroad who ... had they not adopted your worldview ... would live in peace and prosperity.

The reason the West has prospered is because, several hundred years ago, we "grew up" -- and dumped theocracy and its cousin, the divine right of kings, into history's trash can, replacing them with respect for the rights of the individual.

That respect TRANSCENDS culture ... for the desire to live free and pursue happiness is embedded in the most basic "source code" of the human being.

The primary impediment to the proper "execution" of that code, is distortions in the flow of information to the individual -- distortions like authoritarian control of information flow, and/or substitution of flawed information for the truth.

Things you get with theocracy, or prolonged totalitarian rule ... things like a belief that other humans are irrevocably "different".

It is time -- past time -- for the Islamic world to "grow up" and chuck its authoritarianism into history's trash can. If that means that Islam must undergo its own Reformation, just as Christianity did ... so be it.

Should we leave them to the wolves among them, deal with the inevitible collateral damage that will spill out beyond their borders, and hope they figure things out for themselves before their nations become such a threat to us that we are left with the choice of either surrender or nuclear war ...

... or should we help them to learn and adopt what we have already learned works, while crushing the relative few whose perceptions are so distorted that only death will change them, so we all can live in peace and prosperity?

That is the choice. The world is too small to just ignore them.

[Bram]

"How in the hell did we get here?"

We elected Jimmy Carter. He showed incredible weakness against Iranian aggression. If he had been firm and confident, the Iranians would have caved immediately. Kohmeni didn’t support the kidnappers until Carter showed his weakness. Instead, he created and emboldened a whole generation of terrorists.

Others have hit on it. This is a contest of wills. We have to firm and unyielding in our beliefs and our conduct. We cannot ever compromise or even negotiate with terrorists. We must disregard the water-hearted chattering cowards who say otherwise. We cannot be ashamed to be Christian, Jewish, or moderate Muslims. We must never make our decisions based on fear. We have to separate the good guys from the bad, and then treat the bad guys with utter ruthlessness.

They only way they can win is if we are weak. We must not waver.

[Mike K]

Great comments. A couple of thoughts. Two books that have influenced me and are worth reading if you haven't. One is Daniel Pipes "Militant Islam Reaches America". Parts of it are a bit dated but he makes two excellent points. The ideology we face is not really Islam. It is another utopian totalitarian philosophy like Communism and Nazism. He points out that many of the most radical (like the 9/11 hijackers) are not that devout in action (strip clubs, etc.). They tend to be better educated and there is a real tendency to being engineers. Having been an engineer, I can see how one could lack some deep philosophical rumination and just say the Hell with it; let's blow something up. The other book is David Pryce-Jones "The Closed Circle." In this book he discusses the Arab mind. Arab and Islam are not synonymous but the terrorists are disproportionately Arab. He writes about the "Shame-Honor" culture in which pride is everything and tolerance is lacking. I think Bush figured this out and that is why we had to go into Iraq after 10 years of defiance.

By the way Sala al Din was a Kurd and his physician was Maimonides, a Jew.

[Bostonian]

Roach: "if they're to be successful, they'll have to secure democracy for themselves. "

Oh come on, that is far too simplistic a statement. I agree that if democracy is given to them like a new car, that *would* fail.

But if you pay any attention to the news out of Iraq, you would realize that there are millions of Iraqis taking personal risks all the time to make this work. They face death daily at the hands of the Islamofascists and they're fighting back, for the sake of their own country.

This is NOT a gift.

[Don Miguel]

In addition to the books that Mike K mentioned, I would like to add "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)" by Robert Spencer. Spencer is a scholar of religion and especially Islam. Contrary to the disinformation put forth by his critics (almost always Muslims and Islamist apologists), Spencer does not berate or degrade Muslims or Arabs. He just states what Islam is and says based on the writings and words of Mohammed, Islamic historians and scholars.

When you know what the Koran really says and what the historians and scholars have said and say to this day, not only is it easier to see where people like bin Laden are coming from, but why there is no outcry in the Islamic world against him and his ilk. With knowledge of Islam it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to realize than Islam will never, and in fact can never, be reformed and thus will a problem or threat to Western civilization as long as its adherents have the money and capability to leave the deserts where it began.

[jordan]

So we have to ensure that money and the capability to project their religious totalitarian power is cut off, without harming international trade. We are funding our own demise by remaining dependent on Mideast oil.
Witness the new Saudi Ambassador's brittle reaction to Bush's State of the Union statement that we are addicted to oil and have to become energy-independent. Al Faisal reportedly was "concerned what the White House has in mind." And, "where exactly are they going with this? Oil is our bread and butter, at least for the time being, so any such decision by the U.S. affects us." (Newsmax.com)

These decisions have to be in America's best interests, just as the Saudi's and the U.A.E. make their decisions in their own self-interest.

[Abu Sinan]

You can also blame continual American support for dictators like those in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and other Middle Eastern states.

Time for us Americans to put our money where are mouth is. If we want freedom in the Middle East we cannot continue to support governments like those in Saudi Arabia.

If there is an epi-center to the terrorist world it is in Saudi Arabia, and we are one of their most supportive allies. Time for this to stop.

-Blackfive Fan-Moderate Muslim.

[Abu Sinan]

Posted "Then, the Jews and Christians were subjugated resulting in dhimmitude, eventually, conversion to Islam. "

This hardly fails to explain why Jews, on many occasions, fled pogroms in Europe to find safe haven in Islamic lands. Jews were murdered and expelled in almost every country at one point or another. Jews in POST Islamic Spain were forced to convert to Christianity or die.

We can sit and argue about the past all we want, what are we going to do now? That is what counts.

It is time for us to support moderates in the area, and not the cruel dictators that oppress them. Look at Egypt, rigged, gerry mandered elections. Moderate opposition thrown into prison, and they are our closest allies in the Middle East and second largest foriegn aid receiver. Saudi Arabia, the center of terrorism today is very close to many law makers in DC.

We might not be able to change things on the ground in the Middle East, as average American citizens, but I certainly think we CAN and SHOULD change the way OUR law lakers deal with these governments.

I'd love to see a grass roots movemment by Americans to disinvest and cut ties with governments like Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

[Abu Sinan]

Posted "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine the Pope commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven."

I suggest you revist 400 years of religious warfare in Europe. The town I was born in in Germany (I am a military brat) was taken by both sides, Catholic and Protestant, during many of such wars in Europe. Some 25%+ of the town was killed in the Protestant and Catholic jihad against each other.

As to there being no moderate Muslims, if you truly believe this we, as Americans, better institute the draft again right now, because if you are right you are talking about non ending total war for about the next 100 years or so.

But thank God you are dead wrong. There are moderate Muslims, in fact the majority. Blame the media for not hearing about us. Just take a look at the blogging world and you will see moderates making stands in countries you never thought possible, from Saudi Arabia, to Egypt and Bahrain.

Those zealots, and yes they usually are zealots, who claim there are no moderate Muslims and that Islam is the issue, they are part of the problem, not the solution.

[Abu Sinan]

Posted "The ideology we face is not really Islam. It is another utopian totalitarian philosophy like Communism and Nazism. He points out that many of the most radical (like the 9/11 hijackers) are not that devout in action (strip clubs, etc.)."

Spot on Mike, thanks. More than a few of the 9/11 attackers went to a strip club and drank and partied the night before the attack. Not the actions of Islamic militants for sure.

[Mike K]

"Posted "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine the Pope commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven."

I suggest you revist 400 years of religious warfare in Europe. The town I was born in in Germany (I am a military brat) was taken by both sides, Catholic and Protestant, during many of such wars in Europe. Some 25%+ of the town was killed in the Protestant and Catholic jihad against each other."

This applies to the thread on civil war. The 30 years war was horrible and killed 30% of the population of central Europe but it did end that phase of Christianity. The motivation that time was also power. Religion being used for power is not new. We are seeing this in Hindu nationalism too but the Islamic version is the most dangerous right now. I'm unaware of Hindus flying 767s into tall buildings although Sanjay Ghandi was killed by a woman suicide bomber, a Tamil sympathizer.

[Don Miguel]

"We can sit and argue about the past all we want, what are we going to do now? That is what counts."

Abu Sinan, you are right. But let me remind you that right now millions of Coptic Christians in Egypt still live in dhimmitude, Palestinian Christians are shaking in their boots and non-Muslims are being beheaded in Malaysia (just name a few). Regardless of the number of moderate Muslims, there are still enough people who follow and implement some or all of the fundamental tenants of Islam in majority Muslim countries that non-Muslims are subjugated and in some cases must fear for their lives. Whether it is comparable to what happened to Jews in Spain in the 1400s or Germany in the 1930s is not important because the fact is that it is happening to someone today in 2006 and nothing is being done about it.

[Fallshirmjager]

Speaking for myself, I am among that group of thirty-somethings, that at a fragile point in my development, waiting for my favorite TV Show to come on at 7:00 pm was inundated with the Evening News. And what was on the Evening News, every single night when I was 9 & 10 years old?

"Day X of the Iran Hostage crisis." (for 444 days)

Every single night, I saw Iranians burning American Flags, and a Jimmy Carter who was impotent, and an America that was impotent. I spent the next twenty years learning about Islam, trying to learn tolerance, trying to put those images in perspective.

Ronald Reagan helped America learn to stop being ashamed of Vietnam, and not only drew attention to the fact that there is real evil in the world, but that sometimes bravery is doing the hard, unpopular right, instead of the easy wrong.

Now we are embroiled in a war. Declared or not. And one of the first tactics of any war,(and a natural result of it) is the demonization of the enemy. The Germans demonized the Jews, we demonized the Japanese during WWII. The Arab world has been demonizing the West now for decades (centuries actually), and simply saying that we need to learn how to be tolerant is insufficient. I struggle daily with NOT demonizing the entire Isalmic world. And that is the mere result of images on TV. I cannot imagine what the youth in Islamic nations go through, in the Mosque, in daily conversation, in a culture that has little need to be politically correct.

I don't have any answers, but I can say honestly that the time has come for Americans to own up to our prejudices. We have them, but we don't talk about them. And until we do, we will continue to make brainless objections to things like this port deal, WHICH MAKE SENSE, because we find a place where we can let our hatred and fear make decisions under the color of "security".

My last thought is this. Whether or not the moderate muslims agree or disagree with the militant extremists is moot. By their lack of action, they are silently approving. Flip the situation around. If a group of radical Americans were commiting terrorist actions anywhere in the world, you can bet your bottom dollar that the FBI, CIA, DOD, and the local dogcatcher would all have catching them as priority number one. Ultimately, the only group that can avert further escalation is the moderate, silent, muslims.

[subhunter]

Muslims,radical,moderate or silent are to blame
for this mess...The so called Moderates and
silent could stop this in a heart beat if they
chose to do so,but no the beat goes on and of
course who gets the blame???I for one think its
time they get into the 21st.century lets face it
with their oil money the could become players
on the world market place in Hi Tec, medical
and sientific fields along with manifacturing,
plus the oil countrys could help out the poor
Muslim countrys (Honest Im not smoking crack!!)
But sadly I don't think its a cold day in hell
yet!!!!But if they decide to do it to us again,
well it could come down to 18 EMPTY TUBES, A
MUSHROOM CLOUD,ITS MILLER TIME!!!!!!

[Honza Prchal]

Umm, I lean in favor of the "it isn't being covered" argument. Wasn't the Jordanian protest against Zarquawi like 50,000 people strong? No newscasters there. Only the anti-Western stuff has the media's trusted "runners" coming to go get them. The Western oriented folks have classes and military duty and jobs to do. The anti-Westerners there, as here, are generally too rich or too poor to have to worry about being somewhere else.

[lee]

I believe the moderate muslim is the majority of muslims, and I think it's very narrow minded to classify them as cowards and demand they speak up. I wonder how brave those saying that would be in their shoes. Imagine being in a ME country where just feeding your family is very challenging, and knowing that you have a 95% chance of going to prison for ten years(if you're lucky and aren't killed outright)tortured(and we aren't talking panty hats here), your entire family becoming destitute(or raped and/or killed), just for speaking out against what the local Iman is preaching. I don't think anyone in America can even imagine what it must be like to live in such a situation.
This reality is the reason that I think W's vision of creating a free and democratic Iraq, in the center of the ME, is the one roll of the dice that has a chance of changing the dynamics of the region.
It's perposterous to think of just pulling out of the muslim world. At this point, like it or not, our econamy would collapse without the oil we need from there. It would be cowardly of us to abandon Israel, and the vacuum we left would just be filled by China and Russia, compounding our problems. The world is a very complex house of cards build over generations, and it is naive to think you can just rashly start yanking cards out.
In a way, I think we are the cowards, and not because of anything to do with muslims. We have let our culture and traditions be stolden from us by allowing the libs to demonize christians, letting them scrub the faith of OUR fathers from any public forum http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2006/02/28/christians-need-not-apply/ . We worship movie stars and sports figures. We have let the femininists, homosexuals, and "progressive" divorce laws destroy our family structures. Public discourse has become so course that people (men and women alike) curse like sailors with no regard to an elderly lady or 5 yo kid being around. 13 yo girls walk around dressed like prostitutes. We are the wealthiest, most priveliged people on the planet ever, yet never without something to complain about.
I think we should be careful to so dismissivly and harshly judge those with a different outlook on life, and realize that the way we precive ourselves and the way others precieve us can be worlds apart.
Having said all that, I think President Bush is the right man doing the right job, and I thank God he was our president on 9/11.

[jordan]

No one I know advocates pulling American interests out of any region of the world. I have yet to see any dismissive or harsh judgement toward people who simply have a different outlook on life, either. I have only seen harsh judgement toward people who kill, threaten and maim anyone who disagrees with them. People around the world are free to "perceive" others any way they want, as long as they're not killing them and threatening violence.

[Roach]

I don't see what in our declaration of independence commands us to fight imperial wars on behalf of alleged liberal democrats living in the Middle East.

While I acknowledge we have supporters in Iraq, I think it's hard to say what they're fighting for, and it's especially a stretch to say they're fighting for anything like our countrymen in our war of independence. The Shia majority in the Iraqi parliament is pushing Sharia. There is clearly an element of tribal rough justice going on in the shia-majority in the country's political and miltiary institutions. Esprit de corp is low in the Iraqi armed forces and their motivations in many cases are clearly a paycheck--this only made more apprent by mass desertions. (I have this info first hand from a family member who advised such a unit in Ramadi). So while I agree there is such a group in Iraq, it's naive to say that's the chief motivation of the new Iraqi regime and those working for it.

Democracies imposed by foreign powers rarely suceed. NOtice the sorry history of western imperialism over the last 200 years. It has been an especially sorry history in the Middle East. French and British rule in Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, Tunisia, Iraq, Kuwait, the UAE, Oman, Egypt, etc. have left none of these regimes even remotely resembling western societies. In contrast, the homegrown Kemalists in Turkey did so succeed, at least comparatively.

It would be nice if we had more history and fewer political science slogans defining this debate.

[Don Miguel]

"Imagine being in a ME country where just feeding your family is very challenging, and knowing that you have a 95% chance of going to prison for ten years(if you're lucky and aren't killed outright)tortured(and we aren't talking panty hats here), your entire family becoming destitute(or raped and/or killed), just for speaking out against what the local Iman is preaching."

That's a good point Lee, but how does that explain the almost complete public silence of moderate Muslims in the U.S.? With only a couple of exceptions, I have not heard any Muslims publicly challenge the terrorist sympathizers at CAIR or the infusion of Saudi money and Wahhabi imams into mosques in the U.S. Are they also afraid of being thrown in jail, tortured, raped or killed? Of the two Muslim-sponsored rallies against terrorism that I am aware of, the number of Muslims who showed up were less than a hundred. What were the others afraid of?

[gordo]

Since 9/11 I have studied the Muslim world, its culture, and, to the extent I can understand it, Islam. I have been a strong supporter of the President's policy for Iraq holding the belief that democracy, and the freedom and responsibilities that come with it, is a universal desire of most people on earth. I think I'm wrong.

The Muslim world holds values different from ours and that is unlikely to change. There is no distinction between religion and politics in their world, they are one in the same. Therefore any democratic government in an Islamic country is likely to revert to a form of Islamic "democracy" where Islamic law (Shar'ia) will have great influence on how a country governs itself. And that does not bode well for greater peace on earth.

So what does the Muslim world offer to the world at large. Lets review the bidding.

1. Violence in the name of Allah.

As far as I can tell the Koran and the Hadith promote violence against non-believers that do not convert to Islam or agree to pay a tax (i.e., second class citizens with few rights). We are told repeatedly that Islam is the "religion of peace." Yet the practical reality is anything but, including violence between major sects (Shia v. Sunni). Secondly, Islam appears to impose a class system with attendant human rights violations such as against women or the sect that is out of power. Third, Christians and Jews are considered fair targets of violence because of past "sins," current policies, the holding and intrusion of and into Holy Lands, and because of large-scale indocrination by mainstream Muslim clerics of an ill-educated, impoverished constituency. A recent poll in Britain showed that up to 25% of its Muslim population supported Osama Bin Laden. If that's accurate, and it can be projected throughout the Muslim world, than that means at least 250,000,000 people support the murder and subjugation of "non-believers." Finally, one must ask the question, if Iran gets a nuclear bomb are they likely to use it? Given that Islam seems to promote the death of believers as a noble thing then why would they not use it?

2. Education

An educated populace is the key to stable governments and family-level security. How many top Universities are there in the Muslim world? The answer is none. The University of Cairo, considered one of the top universities in the Muslim world, was recently ranked no higher than 25th in the whole African continent. Add the huge investment in madrassas and other schools that are essentially indoctrination facilities for a radical form of Islam and we see that while the West moves forward the Muslim world seems to seek the shelter of the 8th Century Caliphate.

3. Innovation in Intellectual Property that Benefits the World.

The West values innovation and creativity which results in breakthroughs and intellectual leaps forward that benefits all of mankind. We see huge progress in science, medicine, economic theory, literature, arts, engineering, information/computing technology, etc. How many nobel prize winners (put aside Arafat's peace prize) have come from the Muslim world. The answer is none. The only two exports from the Muslim world seem to be violence and oil. The irony is that thousands of years ago the Middle East was a hotbed of innovation and creativity. Of course this was before the prophet Mohammed came on the scene.

4. Charity and Disaster Relief

Islam purportedly requires charity, yet in practice we see very little of that. Put aside how Islamic governments treat its own people what sort of response comes from this part of the world for disaster relief? Very little in spite of their great oil wealth. The American people, largely Christians, raised over $500 million for the tsunami victims who were largely Muslim. That is at least five times what came out of the Muslim world collectively. The American government kicked in another $500 million. This example is the norm not the exception. Who were the first responders to the recent earthquake in Pakistan. Well, the Americans once again. We are a very generous people, the Muslim world, in practice, does not seem to be.

5. Freedom of Speech and the Double Standard

A basic and inviolable tenet of free people is the right to speak one's mind without being worried about getting one's head chopped off. The cartoon war brings clarity to the difference in views between the West and Islam. Islamic countries bombard their people daily with cartoons and television shows depicting Christians and Jews in a horrible light and even promote to children the nobility of blowing up innocent people in the name of Allah. When a few relatively tame, by western standards, cartoons are published that depict the prophet Mohammed we have a world-wide eruption of rage by Muslims. Hundreds of people are killed and hundreds of thousands of Muslims, including children, demonstrate calling for beheadings, hangings, etc. The differences couldn't be more clear and illustrative.

6. Integration into Western Countries

Britain and Western Europe are facing long-term turmoil and violence because their Muslim populations have sought segregation rather than integration. Its another clear indication that many Muslims just do not accept Western culture and the rule of law under secular, democratic governance. They want their own rules to apply independent of the countries they live in. These islands of Muslims boil and bubble resulting in the potential for eruptions of violence with no remedy in sight.

There are more differences between the West and the Muslim world that can be articulated but the ones above serve to illuminate the clash of cultures that we are in and cannot get out of. Its like two tectonic plates rubbing together. What comes of that are erupting volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis.

I don't know what will happen in Iraq over time, but my sense is that its not what we hoped it would be. We need to hang in there awhile longer but if civil war truly breaks out then we should pull most of our troops out and leave the rest to protect the Kurds. Its a noble undertaking but the probability of success seems to lessen everyday. Even those brave souls who voted seem to prefer a Shar'ia based government rather than a secular one. If that's the case what do we really gain?

I see little hope on the world stage of avoiding a long-term war, in deeds and words, with the Muslim world. If that's true, then what should we do? First, stop trying to convert Muslims to liberal democrat thought and governance. If some want it, fine. But let them take the first steps then we can step in to support its growth. Second, continue to prosecute aggressively the war on terror. Continue to use special forces, intelligence gathering, collaboration with the intelligence agencies of other countries, and other tools to track the leaders down and either kill them or capture them. Prosecuting the war on terror also means eliminating threats from weapons of mass destruction. I believe within a year Iran will be bombed back to the stone-age. Third, begin a "Manhattan-style" project to reduce our dependency on oil. Right now all we are doing is funding more terrorism. Our oil use is a national security issue. Finally, put in real controls regarding our borders. Our borders, including our ports, are a sieve. The terrorists only have to be right once. We have to be right one hundred percent of the time. Right now we are engaged in a game of Russian roulette regarding our border security.

I was once hopeful and optimistic regarding the Muslim world and its relationship to the West. I thought that the terrorists were only a small group of nihilists. I may be wrong, but I don't believe that anymore. I believe there is great sympathy and support for the Bin Laden's of the world. I don't hear much from the so-called moderate Muslims leading me to believe that there are relatively few of them. To me, the hard cold facts leave me pessimistic and lead me to believe that there is much violence in our future. I hope and pray that I am wrong, but just look at the record.

[Subsunk]

B5,

Great post. Wholeheartedly agree with you.

Gordo, I too, am depressed and discouraged to view the "moderate Muslim" world. Is the whole Muslim world supporting the extremists? No, but how can you tell the difference if they won't act against them. Do I think they are cowards? No probably not. Do they secretly believe what the extremists say is true or mildly support it? Yes, I think they do, not to the extent the extremists do, but they have shown that they believe infidels are not to be trusted and deserve less than equal respect from Muslims or they would police up their own evil.

I like your points outlining why this position is probably true, and I agree with most of it. Where I differ is on the path you think we should take to win this roll of the dice. I agree with prosecuting the GWOT, and I agree with stop wasting our time trying to change their attitudes while simultaneously being flailed with a "cat-o-nine-tails" by them. But I don't think a Manhattan project to eliminate the use of oil as fuel will stop them. The next step, after they have proven they refuse to live with the rest of the civilized world, is complete and total war against them. I believe once the Muslim world has been given a reasonable chance to show they must be willing to live and let live, and if they refuse that premise, then the total subjugation and, if necessary, extermination of them, their way of life, and their religion is necessary.

I know this makes me extreme, fascist, Nazi, Communist, hatemonger, and racist in most people's eyes. I believe once you have been given a chance to live with civilization, explained the rules of such behaviour, and rejected it in the interests of complete dominance of your religion over all others, that it has become a religious war, with all the totalitarian tendencies involved, and the only way to stop it is with total unconditional surrender of the enemy.

Islam must choose to Live in Peace, or Die by the Sword. Fail to choose wisely, and Death should follow swiftly and unconditionally. This is no less important a conflict than WWII. There are many similarities to WWII. There is no way to avoid a World War outcome if the free world doesn't stand up on its hind legs and put a stop to this stupid cartoonish argumentation, nightmarish beheadings, and brutal subjugation of women and children throughout the Muslim world in the name of Mohammed.

I don't care if they are free to believe what they want. They are WRONG. No civilized person should wish for the total subjugation of women. No civilized person should beleive that an imam has absolute and total power to order you to live your life by his interpretation of the Koran. We have seen this disease throughout history. And it has NEVER been opposed until it is too late to stop WAR. This time, we must wake up and get it right. W is trying and the MSM is working against that. The Dhimmicrats are working against that in the name of their own political power grab.

This is a war of extermination, gentlemen. If we don't fight back, we WILL be exterminated. It has been written in the Koran, in the Muslims own words and in their own native tongues and on our TV screens for all to see. Our lives are worth nothing to them. Only Muslim lives count. And I will never trade my life for a Koran that requires me to beat my wife, and kill my neighbor because he is not like me.

Nazi's did that. Communists did that. The Imperial Japanese did that. Baathists do that.

So if they refuse to live with me peacefully, I will do that. And I have the better weapons. And I'm not sorry I feel this way. (Sorry Abu Sinan, but you are being given your last chance to live with us peacefully. Take it and act against the Evil in your midst or die when your extremists push the World too far).

Subsunk

[jordan]

Our own energy independence won't stop their expansionist fervor, but its necessary if only for America's dignity and flexibility abroad. At the very least, it would be one less complicating factor in war. But there's also a domestic threat to individual liberty that is part and parcel of fighting hatred and terrorism globally. New immigrant groups arrive with an expectation that society adjust to their cultural needs and beliefs. Part of their education as new American citizens has to be that that's not how it works: the newly arrived must adjust to the ways and mores of their adopted country, and leave the (in most cases) third world behind. Civil education can accomplish this: teaching the founding principles of democracy, equality between the sexes, constitutional rights that govern all regardless of religious beliefs, and how Americans throughout history have fought and died to preserve these values.

Every passing day brings more evidence of intolerance toward Americans in foreign lands. I'll be damned if it'll take root here, and civics education is the key. That doesn't mean you learn the system to use it against established norms, as many immigrant advocacy groups have excelled at. It means all citizens must internalize and behave according to American norms of debate and tolerance.