After Action Report - Raven 42 Ambushed!

Posted By Blackfive

"When we first started taking fire, I just looked to the right and saw seven or eight guys shooting back at us — muzzle flashes...At first, I shot one guy.  I saw him fall" - Sgt. Leigh Ann Hester, ABC News Report

Thanks to Loretto M, this is another After Action Report (the review is probably finished but I don't have it, yet).  It is from Joseph Meissner (LTC- RET), Editor, Perspectives Journal , PSYOP Association and was sent in the most recent PSYOP Association newsletter.

Here's the background info from Col Buzz Kriessel:

Friends,

I've just received this account...It is a bit long but a fantastic account of our soldiers in action.

It was written by the Brigade S-2 (Intelligence Officer) who is preparing the official report of the combat engagement this week by Military Police escorting a Convoy in Iraq when hit by an ambush. It was on the news Monday...but not in the detail the AAR depicts. I have included the AAR below...with comments and explanation of the acronyms that might not be clear...see those comments marked as *** at the end of the message.

There is little to add to the AAR. It is a testimony to the professionalism of the soldiers our army continues to field. Bear in mind as you read this, these are support troops, Military Police and Medics, who normally occupy rear areas and provide logistics and route security to tactical forces.

Here is one further comment that may explain why they were so successful...and deadly. Army doctrine and training teaches that, when ambushed, move directly into the ambush. Never away, always into it. Believe me, only highly trained and disciplined troops will do that. These are some remarkable soldiers. Their discipline and ability to use their weapons speaks volumes for the officers and NCO's who trained them.

You may wish to pray for those who were wounded in the engagement.

And here is the report.

AFTER ACTION REPORT: Raven 42 action in Salman Pak

Over the next few days you will see on the television news shows, and in the print news media the story of a Military Police Squad who are heroes. Through those outlets, I doubt that their story will get out in a truly descriptive manner. I can't express to you the pride, awe, and respect I feel for the soldiers of call sign Raven 42.

On Sunday afternoon, in a very bad section of scrub-land called Salman Pak, on the southeastern outskirts of Baghdad, 40 to 50 heavily-armed Iraqi insurgents attacked a convoy of 30 civilian tractor trailer trucks that were moving supplies for the coalition forces, along an Alternate Supply Route. These tractor trailers, driven by third country nationals (primarily Turkish), were escorted by 3 armored Hummers from the COSCOM*. When the insurgents attacked, one of the Hummers was in their kill zone and the three soldiers aboard were immediately wounded, and the platform taken under heavy machinegun and RPG** fire.

Along with them, three of the truck drivers were killed, 6 were wounded in the tractor trailer trucks. The enemy attacked from a farmer's barren field next to the road, with a tree line perpendicular to the ASR***, two dry irrigation ditches forming a rough L-shaped trenchline, and a house standing off the dirt road. After three minutes of sustained fire, a squad o f enemy moved forward toward the disabled and suppressed trucks. Each of the enemy had hand-cuffs and were looking to take hostages for ransom or worse, to take those three wounded US soldiers for more internet beheadings.

About this time, three armored Hummers that formed the MP Squad under call sign Raven 42, 617th MP Co, Kentucky National Guard, assigned to the 503rd MP Bn (Fort Bragg), 18th MP Bde, arrived on the scene like the cavalry. The squad had been shadowing the convoy from a distance behind the last vehicle, and when the convoy trucks stopped and became backed up from the initial attack, the squad sped up, paralleled the convoy up the shoulder of the road, and moved to the sound of gunfire.

They arrived on the scene just as a squad of about ten enemy had moved forward across the farmer's field and were about 20 meters from the road. The MP squad opened fire with .50 cal machineguns and Mk19 grenade launchers and drove across the front of the enemy's kill zone, between the enemy and the trucks, drawing fire off of the tractor trailers.

The MP's crossed the kill zone and then turned up an access road at a right angle to the ASR and next to the field full of enemy fighters. The three vehicles, carrying nine MPs and one medic, stopped in a line on the dirt access road and flanked the enemy positions with plunging fire from the .50 cal and the SAW machinegun (Squad Automatic Weapon). In front of them, was a line of seven sedans, with all their doors and trunk lids open, the getaway cars and the lone two story house off on their left.

Immediately the middle vehicle was hit by an RPG knocking the gunner unconscious from his turret and down into the vehicle. The Vehicle Commander (the TC*****), the squad's leader, thought the gunner was dead, but tried to treat him from inside the vehicle. Simultaneously, the rear vehicle's driver and TC, section leader two, open their doors and dismount to fight, while their gunner continued firing from his position in the gun platform on top of the Hummer. Immediately, all three fall under heavy return machinegun fire, wounded. The driver of the middle vehicle saw them fall out the rearview mirror, dismounts and sprints to get into the third vehicle and take up the SAW on top the vehicle. The Squad's medic dismounts from that third vehicle, and joined by the first vehicle's driver (CLS trained****) who sprinted back to join him, begins combat life-saving techniques to treat the three wounded MPs. The gunner on the floor of the second
vehicle is revived by his TC, the squad leader, and he climbs back into the .50 cal and opens fire. The Squad leader dismounted with his M4 carbine, and 2 hand grenades, grabbed the section leader out of the first vehicle who had rendered radio reports of their first contact. The two of them, squad leader Staff Sergeant and team leader Sergeant with her M4 and M203 grenade launcher, rush the nearest ditch about 20 meters away to start clearing the natural trenchline. The enemy has gone into the ditches and is hiding behind several small trees in the back of the lot. The .50 cal and SAW flanking fire tears apart the ten enemy in the lead trenchline.

Meanwhile, the two treating the three wounded on the ground at the rear vehicle come under sniper fire from the farmer's house. Each of them, remember one is a medic, pull out AT-4 rocket launchers from the HMMWV and nearly-simultaneously fire the rockets into the house to neutralize the shooter. The two sergeants work their way up the trenchline, throwing grenades, firing grenades from the launcher, and firing their M4s.

The sergeant runs low on ammo and runs back to a vehicle to reload. She moves to her squad leader's vehicle, and because this squad is led so well, she knows exactly where to reach her arm blindly into a different vehicle to find ammo-because each vehicle is packed exactly the same, with discipline.

As she turns to move back to the trenchline, Gunner in two sees an AIF***** jump from behind one of the cars and start firing on the Sergeant. He pulls his 9mm, because the .50 cal is pointed in the other direction, and shoots five rounds wounding him.****** The sergeant moves back to the trenchline under fire from the back of the field, with fresh mags, two more grenades, and three more M203 rounds. The Mk 19 gunner suppresses the rear of the field.

Now, rejoined with the squad leader, the two sergeants continue clearing the enemy from the trenchline, until they see no more movement. A lone man with an RPG launcher on his shoulder steps from behind a tree and prepares to fire on the three Hummers and is killed with a single aimed SAW shot thru the head by the previously knocked out gunner on platform two, who now has a SAW out to supplement the .50 cal in the mount.

The team leader sergeant--she claims four killed by aimed M4 shots.

The Squad Leader--he threw four grenades taking out at least two AIF, and attributes one other to her aimed M203 fire.

The gunner on platform two, previously knocked out from a hit by the RPG, has now swung his .50 cal around and, realizing that the line of vehicles represents a hazard and possible getaway for the bad guys, starts shooting the .50cal into the engine blocks until his field of fire is limited. He realizes that his vehicle is still running despite the RPG hit, and drops down from his weapon, into the drivers seat and moves the vehicle forward on two flat tires about 100 meters into a better firing position. Just then, the vehicle dies, oil spraying everywhere. He remounts his .50 cal and continues shooting the remaining of the seven cars lined up and ready for a get-away that wasn't to happen. The fire dies down about then, and a second squad arrives on the scene, dismounts and helps the two giving first aid to the wounded at platform three. Two minutes later three other squads from the 617th arrive, along with the CO, and the field is secured, consolidation begins.

Those seven Americans (with the three wounded) killed in total 24 heavily armed enemy, wounded 6 (two later died), and captured one unwounded, who feigned injury to escape the fight. They seized 22 AK-47s, 6x RPG launchers w/ 16 rockets, 13x RPK machineguns, 3x PKM machineguns, 40 hand grenades, 123 fully loaded 30-rd AK magazines, 52 empty mags, and 10 belts of 2500 rds of PK ammo.

The three wounded MPs have been evacuated to Landstuhl. One lost a kidney and will be paralyzed. The other two will most likely recover, though one will forever have a bullet lodged between second and third ribs below his heart. No word on the three COSCOM soldiers wounded in the initial volleys. Of the 7 members of Raven 42 who walked away, two are Caucasian Women, the rest men-one is Mexican-American, the medic is African-American, and the other two are Caucasian-the great American melting pot.

They believed even before this fight that their NCOs were the best in the Army, and that they have the best squad in the Army. The Medic who fired the AT-4, said he remembered how from the week before when his squad leader forced him to train on it, though he didn't think as a medic he would ever use one. He said he chose to use it in that moment to protect the three wounded on the ground in front of him, once they came under fire from the building. The day before this mission, they took the new RFI bandoliers that were recently issued, and experimented with mounting them in their vehicles. Once they figured out how, they pre-loaded a second basic load of ammo into magazines, put them into the bandoliers, and mounted them in their vehicles---the same exact way in every vehicle-load plans enforced and checked by leaders!

Leadership under fire-once those three leaders (NCOs) stepped out of their vehicles, the squad was committed to the fight.

Their only complaints in the AAR were: the lack of stopping power in the 9mm; the .50 cal incendiary rounds they are issued in lieu of ball ammo (shortage of ball in the inventory) didn't have the penetrating power needed to pierce the walls of the building; and that everyone in the squad was not CLS trained.

Yesterday, Monday, was spent with the chaplain and the chain of command conducting AARs. Today, every news media in theater wanted them. Good Morning America, NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, Stars and Stripes, and many radio stations from Kentucky all were lined up today. The female E5 Sergeant who fought thru the trenchline will become the anti-Jessica Lynch media poster child. She and her squad leader deserve every bit of recognition they will get, and more. They all do.

I participated in their AAR as the BDE S2, and am helping in putting together an action report to justify future valor awards. Lets not talk about women in combat. Lets not talk about the new Close Combat Badge not including MPs.

Acronyms/Commets

COSCOM* : Corps Support Command-The echelon that provides supply, Military Police, Medical, and other support to deployed combat Divisions and other tactical units.

RPG** Rocket Propelled Grenades-Cheap, accurate, devastating weapons. I wish we had them.developed by the Soviets.they are everywhere!

ASR*** Alternate Supply Route. This convoy was obviously on a mission off the MSR (Main Supply Route).

CLS trained**** Combat Life Saving Trained. This is a remarkable addition to the basic medical training we used to receive. It is saving lives on the battlefield as it supplements and enhances the skills the Company Medics have.

*****AIF: Anti-Iraq Forces

******The 9mm round was a terrible decision for the Army to make. The 9mm Pistol replaced the .45 caliber Pistol just as I was leaving the Army. Believe me, one round from a .45 would have done more than wound the enemy soldier. Special Forces, Seals, Rangers, etc, and all those who engage in CQB (Close Quarters Battle) are being issued or buying their own .45s. There is an old addage: "Never go to a gun fight with a handgun that uses ammo that doesn't start with a "4".

Updates:  John Donovan had also been waiting for clearance to post this report.  And, as usual, offers up some great commentary around the report.

And Winds of Change has more commentary and links to videos from the Army's PR media website. 

Here's the video taken from the insurgents - you get to hear them pray just before getting their asses kicked.  It's hard to watch.  You see the humvees and convoy trucks.  At the end of the video, the insurgents (including the videographer) have to reorient their fire as you see the humvees pull up, and the insurgents waiting for them in the trench/ditch.

That's right, they were filming this one so we get to watch it instead of the nice folks who tune into Al Jazeera every night.  Check Winds of Change for the interviews of the Soldiers, too.

Update 03-26-05:  Just to point out that this is certainly not the only story of heroism amongst our female soldiers, Jessica Nichols was profiled here last summer.  She's one more of many examples.

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/2819/2126717

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference After Action Report - Raven 42 Ambushed!:

» Remember the Kentucky MPs.... from Media Lies
....who killed 26 terrorists the other day? Here's their story. It's amazing. You have to re... [Read More]

Comments

[Loretto M]

Please credit FROM: Joseph Meissner (LTC- RET), Editor, Perspectives Journal , PSYOP Association, for the story. His newsletter is incredibly informative and useful.

[Dex Rogers]

This is big time stuff. Raven 42 shows the results of good leadership, great teamwork, commitment, and innovation under fire. There can't be enough gongs handed out for this action. Go Raven 42! Good on ya!

[armynurseboy]

Hooah! Goes to show that just because you aren't infantry, it doesn't mean you aren't still a soldier. Great job! It will be interesting to see the fallout of this on the women in combat and the CCB. IMHO, if you engage the enemy regardless of your MOS, you deserve it.

Incidently, I find it interesting that the MP's only complained about the lack of kill power in their M-9 9mm's, but not in their M-4's. Their has been much hoopla recently about the 5.56mm round being underpowered. Apparently if you get good aimed shots, the round is still quite effective...

[R. Adrian Reilly]

Why we are winning:

Non front-line troops (including women) clobber a numerically superior enemy force that ambushed them.

Superb people superbly trained. Congrats and hats off to all!

[illya]

Superior in numbers and precedence before the Almighty, but that's it. Better be lining up the virgins, cuz Raven 42 IS IN THE HOUSE!!

It makes me wish I was from Kentucky. Actually, it makes me wish I had a woman from Kentucky.

Raven 42 ROCKS!!!

[Keith, Indianapolis]

I hope these Soldiers get the attention they deserve for this. When's the book and made for tv movie comming out??

Now we just need to ensure that ALL squads are this well trained and led.

[Paul]

Great post. Good reading. I did some looking around and found a couple of photos of the guys involved as well well as some video interviews including what appears to be video taken by the insurgents themselves during the attack!! At least that is what it seems to say in the opening notes. (I may be wrong, however.) All worth watching, regardless. Links posted at my blog www.princepundit.com

[Robin Burk]

Matt, re: the 9mms, an MP friend of mine says they're moving to .40s for now as they can do the barrel swap and upgrade quickly.

[Julie]

Did I read this right? You'd think that 3 hummers are a light guard for a 30 semi-truck convoy, but I guess not, huh? Wow.

(I just had a random stray thought... the AIF was filming this? Are US forces going to get accused of targeting journalists again? (That was a joke.))

[Don O'Shei]

I spent 10 years as a Special Forces Weapons Sergeant been to Iraq and to Gunsiteand Ive heard every bit of opinion one way or the other on the whole .45 vs 9mm thing. In my opinion, by far the mos common problem all but the most highly experienced troops have is not lack of stopping power but an inability to handle and shoot under stress. By far the biggest gains in stopping power for both the 9mm and the 5.56 come from improved shot placement under pressure and not from larger caliber. Shoot what you have reasonably well and you'll have a lot less need for a bigger bullet and you'll be able to carry a lot more rounds for the weight.

[Ric Locke]

OK, dumb question: why don't we have RPGs?

Like the man said: cheap, simple, effective. If we don't want to buy from the Russians, there's always the Czechs and the Ukrainians. NIH, but if it works who cares, and there's always the Rheinmetall gun to reference.

'splain it to me, guys.

Regards,
Ric

[anonymous]

If this war is being fought by MP's and medics then I guess it's true that the feather merchants back in Washington didn't send enough troops to do the job right. Maybe if Wolfowitz was in one of those first three humv's they'd get a clue.

[The False God]

"If this war is being fought by MP's and medics then I guess it's true that the feather merchants back in Washington didn't send enough troops to do the job right. Maybe if Wolfowitz was in one of those first three humv's they'd get a clue."

Shove off troll. This is a supply convoy. It's one of the jobs of MPs to guard details like this. Infantry can do it, but they are trained to secure positions, not babysit a moving convoy.

Just what do you think MPs do?

[SWLiP]

I thought that the comment about training soldiers to move toward an ambush was interesting. That is precisely what George Washington trained his Virginia Regiment rangers to do in the wake of the French-Indian War.

I wonder if the tactic goes back that far?

[Rusty]

[quote]
That is precisely what George Washington trained his Virginia Regiment rangers to do in the wake of the French-Indian War.

I wonder if the tactic goes back that far?
[quote]

I'd hazard a guess that this particular tactic pre-dates metal
weapons. It's only requirement being elite troops. :)

[Joe Katzman]

Ric,

Accuracy, weight, size. USA has, in escalating order of side and badassedness: SMAWs (Marines), Swedish AT-4s (Army, designated M136, used here - and compare the effectiveness of 2 M136 shots with their sights vs. many RPG shots), and Javelins.

But even those are considered bulky and heavy, starting at 15 lbs. The next set of folks the jihadi freakzoids decide to mess with may be carrying a few M-72a7 LAWs... updated, and with thermobaric (i.e. MOAB-style fuel-air) warheads:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/03/marines-fought-the-law-and-the-law-won/index.php

Now THAT will make a mess of a house or lightly fortified ambush position in a hurry. And they're tons more portable than an RPG launcher.

[armynurseboy]

"I thought that the comment about training soldiers to move toward an ambush was interesting. That is precisely what George Washington trained his Virginia Regiment rangers to do in the wake of the French-Indian War.

I wonder if the tactic goes back that far?"

The reason why you assault through an ambush is that the best way to survive is to try to regain the initiative. If you don't, you are sitting ducks in the kill zone (which is probably pre-sighted). Take the fight to the enemy and he has to react to you.

[armynurseboy]

"If this war is being fought by MP's and medics then I guess it's true that the feather merchants back in Washington didn't send enough troops to do the job right. Maybe if Wolfowitz was in one of those first three humv's they'd get a clue."

Is the reason you post as anonymous because you are embarassed that you are so clueless???

MP's wartime job is rear area security. That means guarding key positions, traffic control, POW control and convoy escort. In other words, they were doing what they were supposed to be doing. You could use infantry or Cavalry for this mission, but that is a waste of resources. Combat medics are called that for a reason. They accompany fighting units into the fray to treat the wounded. They are called 'Combat' medics because their job is to also fight if need be (and the best way to take care of a patient is to kill the bad guys first so they can treat the wounded in safety). They carry a weapon (usually an M16) and among warfighters add to a squad's firepower. That's a far cry from the medics of past wars who were generally unarmed.

[Julie]

There's no one so blind as the person who's blind on purpose. Truely amazing. Seven of our guys take on 40-some AIF and kill 27 of them while caring for 3 of their own wounded, and *somebody* thinks this is an example of not enough troops? Egad.

[Brendan]

I read this and I am..beyond proud, beyond delighted....words cannt express my respect of their courage, their daring and their professionalism.

We need to stop and pray for the soldier who is paralysed.

RAVEN 42!!

HOOAH!!!

[Al Maviva]

ABC's coverage of this was pretty good as well - fair, and focused on the human side of our soldiers, which the MSM usually misses. I'm pretty sure these were ARNG or USAR soldiers - Martha Raddatz talked about how one is a shoe store manager, another is a clerk in a shop, going through their "real life" jobs. ABC deserves some kudos for not doing the usual MSM trick of humanizing the AQ/Baathist holdout scum, while disregarding our citizen soldiers. More discussion of ABC's coverage here.

Regarding attacking into an ambush - where you have an "L" shaped ambush, it makes all the sense in the world. A platoon level action like the AQ scum were running here, in most armies, would have two or three crew served weapons (machine guns, usually) and a bunch of riflemen, all firing on the area in front of the L. If you look at an ASCII diagram of an ambush where "X" is a machine gun, dots are riflemen, and "Y" is friendly troops, you'll immediately see why the tactic makes perfect sense:

X...........X
.
.
.
. Y
.
X

If Y doesn't attack into the teeth of the ambush, he is stuck in a crossfire, where all the enemy troops can fire at him at once. If, however, he attacks into the center of the ambush, he faces close quarters, direct fire from a machine gun and few troops, but it reduces the amount of fire that he is under from the flanks. The enemy troops on the flank can't shoot since they would be firing into their own lines. This takes 2/3rds of the machine guns out of action, and cuts the number of rflemen who can engage by a similar amount as this diagram shows:

X........X
. Y
.
.
.
X

Once Y gets to the pivot point of the ambush, the proper action is to turn up the flank of the ambush, "rolling it up." This way, Y only faces one or two troops at a time, rather than a firing line.

Y -> . . . . X

It can turn ugly at that point - an ambush can collapse in on the counterattack, at which point the fight turns into close order battle and bayonet drill, an eventuality that happened to some Brits near Basra roughly a year ago. It's still better than getting slaughtered out in the open though.

[Greg Lester]

For those who can't download the video, here's a description:

Wires, trees, dirt, wires, trees, dirt, traffic
"dirka dirka dirka"
wires, lots more wires
gunfire, tractor trailers stop, obviously under fire
"dirka dirka dirka"
Humvees in the distance
wires
more gunfire
72 virgins

[TBone65]

Those MPs are rock-solid soldiers one and all!! The Army needs to consider sending ALL soldiers to a basic infantry tactics course after basic training like the Marine Corps does. That small addition would make all the difference in survivability. They should incorporate AARs like this when they develop the POI for the course.

Just a comment to the guy who said that marksmanship makes up for the ineffectiveness of the ball 9mm and green-tip 5.56mm rounds.

Although a proficient marksman can kill his intended target with those caliber weapons...9 mm and 5.56 mm rounds are still only marginally effective. I helped put together an AAR of seven separate combat engagements during the initial phase of OEF that were conducted by SOF. In those engagements the assaulters used ball 9 mm and green-tip 5.56 mm(fired through the Baretta M9 pistol and the SOF Mod M4). In every engagement, the highly skilled assaulters engaged the enemy at ranges of less than 100 meters with accurate fire and found that it took multiple rounds to effectively neutralize the enemy. Green-tip 5.56 is so fast that it completely penetrates the target leaving a clean entrance and exit wound, and does not have sufficient "stopping power". Same applies with the 9mm round.

Federal law enforcement has almost completely migrated to larger caliber ammunition (10mm, .40, and .45 caliber) as a result of a Miami bank robbery shootout-gone-wrong that happened years ago, yet the military stays with 9mm because it is the NATO standard. I personally believe it is an inferior caliber for combat.

The 7.62 mm round would be a much more effective round for our long guns. Or if compelled to stay with the 5.56, perhaps we could use a law-of-land-warfare compliant non-frangible round that tumbles...hell I'm not sure...whatever is decided by the powers that be, we need more effective equipment AND superior marksmanship.

[peterargus]

Greg:

Great film review, but you forgot the last words out of the cameraman's mouth right before the 72 virgins: "Allahu Akbar". Really no joke its on the tape!

[Jason]

We don't have RPGs, but we have a combination of other weapons that together perform well in that role for dismounted troops.

I think overall, we're better off with a combination of AT-4s and M203s, along with the odd M-240 Bravo 7.62mm light machine gun, than any weapons mixture the enemy has. Additionally, infantry units have a section of 60mm mortars at the company level, which, taken together with the M249 SAW at the squad level is about the most complete tool kit any infantry's taken to war anywhere.

And in the mounted/security role, a mixture of the penetrating power of the .50 cal machine gun and the sheer suppressive area capabilities of the Mk 19 automatic grenade launcher (think a machine gun that shoots grenades instead of bullets) and ...well, it's a beautiful thing.

You know, like an orchestra.

The RPG's been an effective weapon for decades for what it is. It's cost-effective for third world armies and irregular forces, but any grenadier can only carry a few rounds. The U.S. has better stuff, overall.

The uniform basic load for the .50 cal and Mk 19 -- nevermind exactly what it is -- is too small, though. It needs to be doubled. The UBL for the M4/M16 needs to be doubled, too, at least for mounted troops who have somewhere to stash the extra magazines.

[Matt]

Assaulting through an ambush goes back at least to 400 BC - Sun Tzu's "Art of War".

[Brandi in AZ]

It seems to me that this story obviates at least some of the arguments against women serving in non-traditional roles in the military. I admit to not having served, and having little knowledge of military roles, but it seems to me that being a MP is very different from being an infantryman. For instance, a woman MP probably wouldn't have to march 10 or more miles on foot carrying an 80+lb pack, so her lesser upper body strength and endurance would not be as much of a hindrance, or so it appears. Also, the presence of two women in this unit did not appear to lead to sexual shenanigans capable of ruining unit cohesion such that the unit was incapable of doing its job. I'm not saying that there were sexual shenanigans or that there weren't, just that one of the main arguments against women being placed in previously all-male units is that hormones would start raging and discipline would fly out the window. That has probably happened in other units, but apparently not this one, so some lessons need to be learned about how this unit was trained and led.

I'm very proud of this unit, including these strong women, and I'm glad that there is more to the story of women serving in the Iraq war than the tragic story of Pvt. Jessica Lynch. I still think that you can't ignore the physical differences between men and women, so infantry/special forces are probably going to remain closed to women for the foreseeable future, but this story should cause all of us to be mindful for the many ways that women can contribute meaningfully to the defense of the nation. You go, girls! Hooah!

[armynurseboy]

"Just a comment to the guy who said that marksmanship makes up for the ineffectiveness of the ball 9mm and green-tip 5.56mm rounds.

Although a proficient marksman can kill his intended target with those caliber weapons...9 mm and 5.56 mm rounds are still only marginally effective. I helped put together an AAR of seven separate combat engagements during the initial phase of OEF that were conducted by SOF. In those engagements the assaulters used ball 9 mm and green-tip 5.56 mm(fired through the Baretta M9 pistol and the SOF Mod M4). In every engagement, the highly skilled assaulters engaged the enemy at ranges of less than 100 meters with accurate fire and found that it took multiple rounds to effectively neutralize the enemy. Green-tip 5.56 is so fast that it completely penetrates the target leaving a clean entrance and exit wound, and does not have sufficient "stopping power". Same applies with the 9mm round.

The 7.62 mm round would be a much more effective round for our long guns. Or if compelled to stay with the 5.56, perhaps we could use a law-of-land-warfare compliant non-frangible round that tumbles...hell I'm not sure...whatever is decided by the powers that be, we need more effective equipment AND superior marksmanship."

The 9mm needs to go. That is for certain. But pistol engagements on the modern battlefield is so few and far between (outside the SF arena) that does it really matter?

The problem with the 5.56mm is that the current incarnation is being used in a manner that it wasn't primarily intended for. That is against soft targets out of short barrels. The M855 was designed first and foremost as an armor-piercing round and it does that quite well. Makes sense as the primary intended enemy when this round was developed were Combloc infantry. It will still tumble and fragment (like the old M198 for the M-16A1), but only if certain conditions are met. First and foremost it must be travelling at a high velocity. You don't get those velocities at range out of a 14.5" barreled M-4. You will out of a 20" barreled M-16A2 or SAW (the weapons it was designed for). Secondly, the round is overstabalized out of the barrel because of the 1:7" rifling twist. Many police agencies are going to a 1:9" twist, which is just enough for accuracy without creating the icepick effect. Plus allows the use of a variety of different ammo types (to include the older M198).

I think we have certain options to correct this problem. I don't think going back to the 7.62mm is the answer for every person carrying the rifle. The increased weight, harder kick and reduced accuracy in auto and burst mode, reduced ammo load IMHO does not justify it for general issue. The very reason why we dropped it in Vietnam. Another option is to find better ammo. Blended metal APLP rounds by LeMas have been found to be very lethal. But are they Hague Convention compliant? A round similar to the Russian 5.45mm would be effective. It was called the "poison bullet" by Mujh in Afghanistan for a reason. Third, we can drop the carbine craze. The M-4 was never intended for general issue to all riflemen. It was intended for those who need a compact weapon, but were not primarily shooters (ie, vehicle crewman, medics, combat leaders whose job is to lead first, shoot second). Because it is light, handy and well, regraded as sexy is thre reason everyone wants one. But you get the problems listed above. Finally, we can accept reality and get away from the one shot kill mentality. A modern rifleman is not going to shoot his target just once. He is going to keep shooting until the target drops.

[Don O'Shei]

Greg

"The 7.62 mm round would be a much more effective round for our long guns. Or if compelled to stay with the 5.56, perhaps we could use a law-of-land-warfare compliant non-frangible round that tumbles...hell I'm not sure...whatever is decided by the powers that be, we need more effective equipment AND superior marksmanship."

"The uniform basic load for the .50 cal and Mk 19 -- nevermind exactly what it is -- is too small, though. It needs to be doubled. The UBL for the M4/M16 needs to be doubled, too, at least for mounted troops who have somewhere to stash the extra magazines."

Two points:

First, while "effective" equipment and "superior markmanship" are great I was not specifically discussing marksmanship per se but the ability to deliver it under pressure of combat. Thats why studies of troops in the initial phases of OEF are not really that indicative. The characterization on accurate fire is generally self reported and often suffers from a lack of perspective. Even combat experienced troops require some transition time to allow getting used to the adrenaline dump again after a break in action. Inexperienced troops even more so. Their ability to judge accurate fire is less than perfect I would think. There is no guarantee that in these early engagements that 7.62 or .45 would be more significantly effective.

Second, there is a guarantee that soldiers who carry heavy combat loads as it is will always be able to carry significantly higher numbers of 5.56/9mm rounds compared to 7.62/.45. Sure there is a trade-off and if the stopping power of lighter rounds could be improved then we should. Unfortunately, however, most proponents of the heavier rounds faail to address the weight/bulk issue. An issue, I'll point out, thats is considerably less important for cops.

[Adam Maas]

The basic load issue is a valid one for 5.56mm, although it might be time to move to a different round. It's not a valid argument for 9mm, simply because a pistol is an 'Oh Shit' weapon, you don't use it until you're in deep. The .45ACP round was developed for exactly the situation we have here (Stopping Muslim Insurgents) when the .38 the army was using then (Balisticly similar to the 9mm NATO) proved inneffectual. Simply put, you aren't going to be carrying 15 magazines for your pistol, and if you are, you should have a rifle or carbine.

Of course, the US needs a decent SMG for vehicle crews, issuing the Carbine for this is a poor comprimise (It's really too long for the role). Wonder if there's any M3's left in storage?

[armynurseboy]

Here is an interesting AAR:

http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm

[Julie]

Sun Tzu was talking about armies, though, wasn't he? On death ground, or desperate ground, or whatever, fight, attack... depending on the translation. The concept is there though. I'll agree with that.

In any case, knowing to attack into an ambush isn't the same thing as being trained to do it by reflex. What impresses me most about this is that the MP's seem not to have been under fire themselves but in response to the stopped semi trailers and gun fire, rushed forward into the fire zone when they could not possibly have known the size of the AIF force involved.

[commadore183]

"Wonder if there's any M3's left in storage?"

Now that would be nice to see. A WWII-era weapon up into modern-day use. Of course, the M3 should be used in CQB because of the loss of accuracy over a distance with SMG.

The issue between lighter ammo and better stopping powere is intriguing to me. On one hand, you need to have to stopping power of the .45 ACP (what does that mean?) to make sure the enemy gets the point, but also you need a lot for CQB. As far as I know, pistols are NOT used a primary weapons, only as a last ditch weapon. I say, use the .45 ACP for the pistols, and keep the 5.56 for the rifles. Change to pistol ammo, but keep the rifle ammo.

[commadore183]

BTW, Blackfive, do you mind if I post this article on my blog?

[laddy]

Commodore183: Are you asking what ACP stand for? Automatic Colt Pistol, I believe.

[armynurseboy]

"Now that would be nice to see. A WWII-era weapon up into modern-day use. Of course, the M3 should be used in CQB because of the loss of accuracy over a distance with SMG."

The M3 is an obselete weapon. There are better models of subguns out there that are chambered for .45 or other effective rounds. 5.7mm and the P90 is being considered for NATO adoption. Just remember that a .45 won't penetrate soft body armor, but a 9mm can depending on the armor used. And the M2 .50 is essentially the same weapon that was developed during WW1. M-14's are essentially product improved M-1 Garands.

"The issue between lighter ammo and better stopping powere is intriguing to me. On one hand, you need to have to stopping power of the .45 ACP (what does that mean?) to make sure the enemy gets the point, but also you need a lot for CQB. As far as I know, pistols are NOT used a primary weapons, only as a last ditch weapon. I say, use the .45 ACP for the pistols, and keep the 5.56 for the rifles. Change to pistol ammo, but keep the rifle ammo."

There is always a give and take with ammo. Bigger caliber usually trades off stopping power for fire power. A .45 will knock a man down, but you only have 8 rounds to do it with, so you had better be a good shot. A 9mm doesn't hit quite as hard, but you have 15 rounds to hit him with. When the Army switched over, on top of falling in line with NATO, they opted for firepower and ease of shooting over stopping power.

[red river]

"The reason why you assault through an ambush is that the best way to survive is to try to regain the initiative. If you don't, you are sitting ducks in the kill zone (which is probably pre-sighted). Take the fight to the enemy and he has to react to you."

Ambushers are sitting ducks if someone gets in their lines. The ambushers are in fixed positions with cover and concealment and limited FOV especially to the rear. The trick to counter ambush is to get into the ambush line and then roll it up. The most effective weapons are light carbines, shotguns, or pistols because you are running and shooting at targets of opportunity. Once you get on line and start to move, the only way to stop you is if the ambusher has good rear security that can see you and shoot at you -or- your buddies' fire hits you. For the latter, they have to learn to listen for your fires and stay away from you or suppress your leading edge.

The M2 .50 cal is a great suppression weapon and it sounds like the MP team did a lot of things right.

--

On medics, one of my uncles was a medic in Korea, but carried a .45 his wife mailed to him in pieces in popcorn over a few weeks. Medics did arm themselves if they chose.

--

Stopping power. The 6.5 mm is probably the best compromise between stopping power and fatigue.

[red river]

The video interviews are great. Sgt Allen really opens up at the end. Spc Mike ( medic ) tries to act cool. I thought the male interviewer was more personable - he let the soldiers say hi to their familes. The lady from CNN was too short.

I also find it interesting that the squad plus had at its disposal so much firepower - one .50 cal, one SWAW, one MK19, and lots of AT-4. They also had a medic which is a force multiplier as he can put injured soldiers back into the line and take the need to care for casualties off the shooters. It also looks like they had individual radios and were able to communicate.

They did not have air strikes nor an air observer and they did not have mortars or artillery. It was a pure infantry fight.

If you are so inclined to read about stopping power -

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/downloads/taylor.html

Laddy, the Para Model 14-45 carries 14 rounds of .45 ACP.

If you want to see the application of the Taylor model in the development of rounds, then go see:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

And for all the craftmanship in the Garrett ammo, the 12-G shotgun with a 1 oz slug is still king of the heap in knockdown power and is dirt cheap.

[commadore183]

"Commodore183: Are you asking what ACP stand for? Automatic Colt Pistol, I believe."

Thanks, laddy. That one had me stumped for a while.

It is incredible that these soldiers would fight into the ambush, because I would have ran like a little sissy from there to find cover, but that is civilian side talking.

The .45 ACP is a great round, no doubt, but, as armynurseboy said, you only get 7 to 8 rounds per clip, and thus, have to carry more magazines for that gun. The 9mm, on the other hand, is lighter, so you can carry more; but you will suffer a loss of stopping power. (That has already been said.) Now, I feel that it should be the soldier's choice of whether to have the .45 ACP or the 9mm, but I am not in tune with the military about soldier's loadouts and such.

And as for the WWII comment, I didn't mean to knock on such weapons, I just meant that a weapon like the M3 has had so few (I think about just one modification, and that's for the cocking bolt) would be, well, interesting to see the outcome; but, with the Ma Deuce, it has evolved over time to meet the demands of modern military, while the M3 was only meant for WWII. I'm I correct on this assumption?

[joe]

I've downloaded the video from the insurgents. DOD N05032307.wmv
What application do I need to run it?

[armynurseboy]

"And as for the WWII comment, I didn't mean to knock on such weapons, I just meant that a weapon like the M3 has had so few (I think about just one modification, and that's for the cocking bolt) would be, well, interesting to see the outcome; but, with the Ma Deuce, it has evolved over time to meet the demands of modern military, while the M3 was only meant for WWII. I'm I correct on this assumption?"

The M3 was a cheap alternative to the Tommy Gun. It did what it was designed to do, and was successful at it. It was in the inventory up until Desert Storm as a dismounted weapon for Tankers. It was really the only subgun in the inventory, as the military doesn't use them outside of the SF community.

"Now, I feel that it should be the soldier's choice of whether to have the .45 ACP or the 9mm, but I am not in tune with the military about soldier's loadouts and such."

Bad idea. You don't ask soldiers what they want to carry. You TELL them what they are goingto carry. If you asked, you would get a million different answers and it would become a logistic nightmare!

[Ernest Brown]

This is great, but it still doesn't address the criticism of the dumbing down of the strength and endurance norms for female armed service members at the behest of DACOWITS. I never had any doubts that women could kill with cold-blooded ruthlessness in combat, but things like pulling 250 lb. men out of a sinking ship are completely different issues.

Still, cheers to the MP's. It is wonderful to see a bunch of good soldiers do a great job for their country.

[SFC Ski]

Whether or not women can hack it as dismounted infantrymen is moot in this case considering they were initially mounted in trucks. No, women will not be going into infantry any time soon, nor overt SF. MY buddy's a tanker and he thinks females will eventually integrate into armor, he'd trained a few females in basic gunnery and other aspects of tanking and doesn't see a major problem. I was an armored vehicle driver, I know about the muscles required for vehicle maintenance, but for the heavy jobs no one man could do it alone anyway, so it is less of a factor to consider as an obstacle. Could they handle the loader job? Hard to say, but onje thing I've noticed is that where a man will use muscle power to solve a problem, women will usually come up with a work smarter not harder solution.

One thing no one has touched on in this instance is that the second highest ranking NCO was a female, and by all accounts she LED under fire, I'd say that is a very important thing to consider.

Thanks for posting the full AAR, this gave me some ideas for our train-up for the next rotation..

[TCO]

My experience in USN was that we had the .45 as a pistol. Learning to shoot that accurately was a bear, although I got a ribbon. Great for first shot, but for multiple shots if not very well trained, might flinch from the recoil. Seems very different from the 9mm, which is like clink clink, while the .45 needs both hands on it, etc. We still have the M-14, too, but also have M-16. Not sure why both. Probably just inertia and behind the times. Took some special secturity school and all the rifle work was with the 14.

Fascinating reading this report and listening to y'all talk about it.

[Orion]

"The .45 ACP is a great round, no doubt, but, as armynurseboy said, you only get 7 to 8 rounds per clip, and thus, have to carry more magazines for that gun. The 9mm, on the other hand, is lighter, so you can carry more; but you will suffer a loss of stopping power."

The point being that the .45 is going to knock the target on his ass the first time you hit him, body armor or no, while the 9mm is going to give him a greater chance to continue/return fire. The people actually using these weapons are the ones complaining they need more stopping power; I think that should settle the argument right there.

[notway]

I wonder why a Brigade S-2 (an MP or MI branch major?) had to spoil this by the swipe at Jessica Lynch, an honorable soldier, seriously wounded in combat, who faced her situation with bravery.

I really have no idea what is meant by "anti-Jessica Lynch poster child," but it smacks of unprofessional commentary impugning Ms. Lynch.

[armynurseboy]

"The point being that the .45 is going to knock the target on his ass the first time you hit him, body armor or no, while the 9mm is going to give him a greater chance to continue/return fire. The people actually using these weapons are the ones complaining they need more stopping power; I think that should settle the argument right there."

But you have to hit him first and a .45 is a lot harder to shoot than a 9mm, especially considering the amount of trigger time an average troopie (SF and MP's aside) gets on pistols. My primary assigned weapon in my last tour with 3d ACR was the 9mm and I shot it twice a year if I was lucky.

I am not arguing that the 9mm is a bit anemic in stopping power. But there are a lot of factors beyond that as to why it was adopted, firepower and accuracy being two of them.

[TCO]

How many of our opponents in this theater (or others) wear body armor?

[Andrew]

Amazing story. Those soldiers showed fantastic courage. What strikes me about this is how the media is crawling all over the story. I mean, its a good thing, but does that make up for all of the lesser engagements they don't cover. These micro battles are happening all of the time, plenty of stories of heorism and courage that they don't cover.

Nice to see the .45-9mm and 5.56-7.62 debates still going strong. Despite what someone posted, this isn't 'recent', the debate has been going on for decades.

I think the pros and cons of both sides have already been well described. I think its obvious that putting rounds on target is more important than how much damage the bullet does. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about what caliber of bullet they were hit with. Very few of us can comment on what its like to be in combat, I can't imagine what that level of stress does to ones shooting accuracy.

Regarding police vs military, there is a huge difference here, and that is ammo type. The military uses non expanding ammo. Great for penetration, and we aren't just talking bullet proof vests here. You need to be able to shoot through cover. The police on the other hand use very specialized expanding ammo. It is far more deadly, and limits the possability of shooting through the target and harming bystanders. With the proper ammo the much put down .38 special and 9mm are very deadly, usually one shot stoppers.

Someone mentioned the 6.5mm, I think this may be a good option. Few people want to think outside of the .22 or .30 box. An intermediate round might do the trick.

One more note on the 5.56, I have experience in hunting. To those calling for more stopping power I have to agree with you on a certain level. Watching a 30 pound coyote shrug off a 5.56 and run for a mile is somewhat telling. Then again, when such a high speed bullet catching a heavy bone, the damage done is quite devestating.

[armynurseboy]

"How many of our opponents in this theater (or others) wear body armor?"

Currently? None (unless Hajji managed to buy some on the black market). But who are out potential enemies and do they employ body armor? The most obvious answer is China and North Korea, and both do.

[Barqui]

as mention before the SOB started saying god is great at the end of the video. He was happy that the US soldiers arrived. After their actions and results I think he may have lost some of eagerness!!! hope all recover well, true heros. And yes our women can kick their A....

[Barqui]

as mention before the SOB started saying god is great at the end of the video. He was happy that the US soldiers arrived. After their actions and results I think he may have lost some of the eagerness!!! hope all recover well, true heros. And yes our women can kick their A....

[Barqui]

as mention before the SOB started saying god is great at the end of the video. He was happy that the US soldiers arrived. After their actions and results I think he may have lost some of the eagerness!!! hope all recover well, true heros. And yes our women can kick their A....

[Barqui]

as mention before the SOB started saying god is great at the end of the video. He was happy that the US soldiers arrived. After their actions and results I think he may have lost some of the eagerness!!! hope all recover well, true heros. And yes our women can kick their A....

[corrie]

Great post and excellent commentary. Noted and posted under "Fight Like a Girl" at A Simple Desultory Dangling Conversation. http://sddc.blogspot.com/2005/03/fight-like-girl.html

The comment about Jessica Lynch I think referred to the fact that her squad was overwhelmed by ambushers, she was seriously injured and captured, and had to be rescued. By contrast the lady warriors of Raven 42 (having the benefit of Lynch's experience, don't forget) kicked the AIF's assess. I don't think it was intended as a personal dig to Pvt. Lynch. No serious person doubts her personal courage under fire.

[Larry J]

Perhaps we're seeing the vanguard of a new breed of women - fully capable of taking the fight to the enemy. Stories like this remind me of Killer Chick (see http://www.warbirdforum.com/chick.htm ), a hot stick A-10 pilot who proved up to the challenge of mortal combat a couple years ago. She, and the women in this and other recent stories, are proving they are true warriors.

[TBone65]

USMC SOCOM Det is using a specially modified Kimber M1911. I fired hundreds of rounds out of the weapon and found it pleasant to fire and very accurate.

Someone said earlier that the pistol is a last resort weapon...not always true in CQB and other close-quarters environments ("back-up weapon" is a more accurate description: M-4 jams mean a transition to the pistol - at least that's the drill) I guess it just "feels" better to fire a great big round that hits like a sledgehammer, than an M-9/M-11 cap-gun. Personal preference I guess.

Thanks for that OIF weapons AAR. Good stuff. I also have some thoughts about the body armor/carrying equipment issue:

I ended up changing my load carrying configuration depending on the mission (different riding up on the .50 than riding in the back of an NTV. Also remembering that in an ambush, the only ammo/equipment you have is what is strapped to your body...the idea of a "go-pack" and extra stuff prepoed in the vehicle is nice in theory, but not always realistic.

Armor - I found that wearing a Type-3 soft vest under a plate-hanger was the most comfortable and useful configuration, combined with an Israeli-style ammo carrier and camelback H2O bag.

Anybody else got any ideas on this?

[armynurseboy]

As far as pistols go, I don't think it's accurate to say that a pistol is a back-up weapon for CQB amongst regular line guys, as most don't carry one (aside from officers and NCO's). SF and MP's do, but they are the exception, not the rule.

As far a load carrying equipment, I really like the new IBV's. With the attachment points on the vest, you can forgo having to wear a bulky LBE over the body armor. Early on in OIF I, we didn't get a whole lot of RFI stuff that the light fighters got. Not being a line dog, I didn't go out on patrols or convoys very often. But when I did I usually had my camelback on, and a knife and first aid pouch attached to the front. For my ammo, I took a hint from the Vietnam era grunts and loaded up a bandolier with my basic load and just slung that over my shoulder. It was a lot less bulky way to carry my ammo. I eventually bought some Blackhawk MOLLE ammo pouches that I attached to the front of my vest in place of the bandolier.

[Diamond Dad]

Showing my age, perhaps, but as mentioned several times, training and discipline and its demonstration under fire is the most gratifying gift these young warriors have given me and mine (after their safe return and demob, of course).

Standard "LITT/D" (Lite Infntry tactics training and doctrine) has taught since MY beginnings that essentially--in a well planned and executed ambush KZ-(the assumption is there is no other kind if you are in it) you are already dead--human nature dictates hunker down and cover--the only viable alternative is to assault directly into and thru the base of fire, out of the KZ, flipping it and/or rolling up the ends as indicated elsewheres above. This for all classes of soldiers (in the Army/USAF yeah, a few of them too, and I'm sure, the Marines) from basic and AIT initial qual training. Then it becomes an issue of sustainment (refresher) training thruout your career at NTC, JRTC, etc (think ARTEP in the 80s/METTL now) overseen at the unit level and conducted at squad level down on a semi annual basis, I think, for support troops, more often for crunchies.

human nature screams "deer in the headlite" behavior, individually--repetitive action drills in peace time with the presence of outstanding NCO leadership increases your odds of survivability in such a situation. It's still drilled into the youngsters,even though so much else has (seemingly) changed.

It was not uncommon, back in '93 to hit "Sammy" 4 to 5 times b4 he went down--as I recall, from 25-100 meters. we bitched about MBJ then, too--even taking into account that better than 95% of them were hopped up on 'Khat'100% of the time, add to that they were as thick as two sheets of bond paper turned edge wised. Seemed they didn't even slow down after your first "double tap"--unless you hit their 'lite switch'right off--
Can't say that I noticed that trend as strongly in OEFI or OIFI-II--even an arab in a man dress and flip flops seemed (all in all, with the benefit of hindsight)to have been more willing to go down if hit reasonably close to center mass. Course, if you get hit by Mr. 50--u stay quite hit...

Goes back to the argument that if you can't hit what you aim at, don't matter if you are packing a howitzer, I guess--and I "optioned" for an A2/A3 for all of OEF and more than 1/2 of OIF--carbines ARE easier to handle in, and coming out of a mounted platform, though--and regrettably, the "coolness factor" noted above has some validity, my experience says, not necessarily amongst the youngsters, but the deeper into staff (and the further back you are).

Just 3 weeks ago, Army times did a write up on the "coming" replacement generation of the current 5.56 family of LI weapons--the hidebound, chairborne rangers at Aberdeen STILL envision shortening the standard weapon (like the M4/CAR15) to the point of eliminating the absolute necessity of sidearms (outside of SOF)-but they DO note the soldier on the line's desire for a backup weapon as "valuable input".

Yes, Jessica Lynch is ..."A Soldier, Too"--but the facts are--she was a traffic accident casualty in the middle of a firefight. The initial stories portrayed her as fighting to the last round, and throwing a couplea rocks b4 being butt stroked into submission (in point of fact, that was the 'square headed farm boy' from Kansas--PFC Miller, as I recall--but he's a guy, 'kay? The further problem in that time frame was that the Army PAO was "accused" of creating that image b4 the facts "could possibly be known"--becuz, afterall, after what, 5 days, the MSM was already screaming "quagmire" (my brother videotaped coverage for me in my absence)

THESE girls (as a former "professional parent" I feel entitled to refer affectionately to any of my kids) ran up that trench like a couple of grizzly sows defending their cubs--with witnesses.
There ain't gonna be NO disputing that--hence the Anti Lynch observation, I believe.

[armynurseboy]

"THESE girl...ran up that trench like a couple of grizzly sows defending their cubs--with witnesses."

What's that old saying: "The female of the species is deadlier than the male....."

[Andrew]

So what does everyone here think of the '7mm' option? Remington has already created the round, uppers for the new bullet are already available for AR rifles.

Can anyone forsee the army switching over to this round, or are we too long into the .223 to give it up?

[armynurseboy]

If we end up switching over to any round, it will probably be in the 6mm range (6.5x45, 6.5mm Grendel, 6.8mm SPC). If we switch over, it will have to be a military wide thing (not just Army), and probably even then, accompanying a new standard rifle. Don't know if NATO would bite off on it (which is another consideration).

[Andrew]

I wonder if a .270 caliber round like Remingtons 6.8 SPC would fit the bill for assault rifle, SAW, MMG, and sniper rifle. That would certainly simplify ammo supply, would it not?

Looking quickly over the ballistics, the 6.8mm compares quite favorably to the 7.62mm downrange.

[armynurseboy]

"I wonder if a .270 caliber round like Remingtons 6.8 SPC would fit the bill for assault rifle, SAW, MMG, and sniper rifle. That would certainly simplify ammo supply, would it not?"

This is what the Chinese are doing with their new 5.8mm round. They use different loadings for their assault rifle, SAW and Desginated Marksman rifles, which in reality doesn't simplify the logistics train as each round is optimized for a specific weapon system.

[Will]

Jessica Lynch had both legs broken and her back severely injured before the fight broke out. Her weapon jammed. No one in that position could have fought. The erroneous reports of her heroism stemmed from an intercepted enemy communications, in which the bad guys described a slender blonde soldier putting up a ferocious resistance at great cost to the enemy. That report was mistranslated to describe that soldier as a female. I do not remember who that soldier was, but he was likely executed by the Iraqis after he was captured. As an Iraqi nurse in a hospital testified, he was taken from the hospital by Iraqi soldiers and was returned dead a while later.

The soldiers in that unit did not receive combat training because they were support staff. Their weapons jammed because of the lack of maintenance. In spite of not having fired his weapon in seven months, PFC Miller shot seven Iraqis, all the while slapping his M-16 after each shot because it would not chamber properly. He was awarded with the Silver Star for his actions that day.

[armynurseboy]

"The soldiers in that unit did not receive combat training because they were support staff. Their weapons jammed because of the lack of maintenance. In spite of not having fired his weapon in seven months, PFC Miller shot seven Iraqis, all the while slapping his M-16 after each shot because it would not chamber properly. He was awarded with the Silver Star for his actions that day."

The unit did not recieve infantry type training, which is true, but that does not excuse the fact that they did not do proper maintenance on their weapons. That is a failing of their chain of command.

Incidently, it was PFC Miller who was the 'slender, blonde soldier' and he was not executed.

[Nick]

Nick, I sure hope this getas to you. Let me know.
Mel

[John]

5.56 is OK if you're shooting people. The problem is that people tend to hide behind things after the first few shots are fired. The ability to penetrate that cover is crucial.....7.62mm is still king.

[John Ford]

There's mention of a medic firing on the enemy. Maybe someone can correct me but isn't it against the Geneva Convention for a soldier designated as a medic (with appropriate outward insignia such as a prominent red cross)?

Wouldn't he have to remove his insignia before he could become a combatant?

[Raquita]

I am not a liberal, not a right wing, not a dem, not a repub, I'm just a woman, a mom, a poet. Although my fiancé would probably say I’m lean more left than right –but it would depend on the discussion. I appreciate your information and am glad it is available. I have relatives (three at last count) and several friends who have been in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan since all of this started. I could never be more proud of a group of individuals (all of the armed forces) than I am of the US's armed individuals. Followed a close second by teachers , civil service persons, firemen, honest police, and mothers. I don't agree with our reasons for being there but I believe in the job our troops do and know they are doing their absolute best and I am grateful for them. They are our countries most valuable asset, and I hope they know everyone who doesn't agree with the politics, still believes in our team. More people should exposed to the positive missions and success that our forces have encountered. I have looked and sought out the positive humanitarian stories to show my relatives so when we have relatives in combat areas they have something more positive to hold on to. Thank you for the resource..

[Xopher]

Sounds like some MP's deserve Expert Infantry Badges, not the Close Combat Badge. Nuf said above.

[Rebecca]

So late, so late...I've just come across milblogs in the past couple of months. I had given up on the MSM as I wasn't getting anything in depth on the war. It is great to hear (and learn) about what is truly going on in this war.

[Paul Zimmerli]

I'm going to pitch my four cents worth into the ring about the pistols: We have one helluva good pistol cartridge available at the moment: the .40 Smith & Wesson. It's the same as the Feebies' de-rated 10mm round, but it will fit the smaller frames associated with the 9mm. I don't remember exactly, but I think you lose one or two rounds mag capacity vs the 9-mils. Time for the big brass to think about "big brass" when it comes to combat firepower. This one starts with a "4" but can be Europeanized back to "10mm Kurz" to keep our NATO allies jollied. After all, it's just a silly millimeter more...

[jtb-in-texas]

Medics with guns are not against the Geneva Conventions, it's possibly a violation of the Hague Conventions--which only apply, IIRC, between Great Powers which are also signatories... which at last count does not include al-Qaida or any other similar group...

And only applicable against groups that respect it anyway... the terrorists are trained to aim at the cute little red crosses...

[ERNurse]

Navy Corpsmen and Army medics in the Pacific Theater during WW2 were armed and returned fire against the Japanese, who took particular delight in killing the men with the red crosses on their helmets.

This is just plain good practice. If the POS AIF dudes don't want to abide by the international ROE, cool.

The MSM hates this stuff because it proves their whole ideology to be the farce that every critically-thinking American always knew it to be.

PS: I was a squad machine gunner Wayyyy back in the long ago, and I used the M60 and the .45 sidearm. Great, kick*ss weapons- I loved 'em both dearly and was sad to part with them. The SAW and the 9mm are best suited for French and German troops who don't go anywhere near where the action is, and hence have no need for real weapons.

Tah.

[Goonboss]

I double dog, secret squirrel promise you that the medic was NOT wearing a red cross brassard. Medics are classed non-combatants, but, they are armed for purposes of defending thier patients. I was a medic, and, I was damn sure armed. I mad an M-16, until I made E-6 and was re-assigned to the aid station where I got a 9 mm. I'd damn sure shoot if I was ambushed. MEdics are assigned weapons in teh unit TO&E just like every other soldier.

Secenerio one: Enemy comes across aid station working on wounded. Medics do not fire in defense. *Protected by laws of war as non-combs*

Scenerio two: Same SITREP, but, medics fire in defense. *Fair game*. Hope that helps.

[Anonimously Yours]

I know Leigh Ann Hester and can attest that she is a wonderful person. She makes the KY National Guard and the US Army proud. However I must add that I'm shocked that she would perpetuate the "spin" that the US Army has put upon the significance of her role. The truth is that the "Raven 4-2" element was the LAST element to join that firefight. They were SEVERAL minutes behind the "Stallion 3-1" element who was the first patrol to respond to the attacked convoy. Furthermore there is GREAT debate as to the identity of the "Hmmwv" in the film. Indications lean towards it actually being a "Stallion" vehicle instead of a "Raven" vehicle. Spc Mike as well...shame on you. Thank God that the "Stallion 3-1"element had presence of mind enough to make 4 trips back into the "kill zone" and collect the wounded, treat and medevac them (while recieving fire and returning EFFECTIVE, ON POINT fire)...because initially their own medic was off playing infantryman instead of treating his OWN wounded. That's right he left his wounded in the hands of "combat lifesavers" while he was running around badge chasing. Granted the combat lifesavers in "Stallion" element are reputedly the BEST in the army...He didn't know that...and he obviously didn't care. I only hope that the free drinks those silver stars get them back in the U.S. are enough to help them forget the blood in which they're coated.

[Mad Matt]

Hi,
The stories above discussed the actions of Jessica Lynch, and of Miller also. I think you should be advised that the hero of attack on the 507th was Sgt. Donald Miller, the cook.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/28/earlyshow/main620136.shtml

Some of the other websites have indicated that it was he that dismounted his vehicle and held his position while fighting, enabling his comrades to turn the vehicles and escape.

Matt

[Mad Matt]

Sorry, it was Sgt. Donald Walters.....

[doesnt matter]

I'm tired of hearing this shit about the mp's and then the big fucking lie about how it was a civillian convoy. It was a national guard convoy with civillian trucks mixed in, and we did a good job of taking out those insurgents the mp's showed up for the last 15 min of a 45 min gun fight. all they really did was slaughter the wounded guys rolling around in the ditches

[crosspatch]

I noticed that Sgt. Hester has her own page on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Ann_Hester

An outstanding American soldier.

[from the guys in 623]

I am seriously tired of hering the raven 42 story because its bullshit and they are leaving out an important part that would really change everyones mind if they new it and so thats what im here for. If u watch the video and u see the convoy that came under the initial attack that was also a unit from the Kentucky national guard B 1/623 field artillery and the reason we were not mentioned at all in the reports and this is fact my friends. Sgt ricky burke which is in b 1/623 fa was turned if on war crimes by all of your raven 42 heroes and was on trial for attempted murder and pre-meditated murder for 3 months.what kind of unit turns another soldier in on war crimes after being attacked like that and especially being from the same state. Thats why in the aar we were only mentioned as a coscom convoy and we were in the same batallion at that. so you guys believe this poster child bullshit if u want i was there. it was at a time when there was a debate on women in combat and they seen there chance to have a poster child so they praised one and put one on trial to keep his mouth shut about the truth of march 20th

[Migo]

My only contribution to this discussion is what I heard from my Dad late in his life.

My father served with 141st Reg 36th Texas Div. They were the first Americans to land in Europe 9 months before d-day suffering tremendous casualties. He was first scout and had 7 second scouts either KIA or WIA behind him, including his half brother. He received the Silver and Bronze stars, as well as Purple Heart he got from wounds received from a German 88 tree burst that also killed his half brother. My dad was shot total of 4 times.

In any case he carried a Tommy gun and two captured pistols, both Walther P-38’s. He said he could have had .45 pistols but he liked the P-38 because of double action, was reliable and accurate.

He said that when the German Schmeisser sub-machine gun rounds hit Americans they did not always go down like the Germans did when hit with .45 rounds. He said that the .45 was short range round but was deadly and feared by the Germans, especially in hose to house and forest fighting where the action was closest.

He talked about the Germans machine gun I believe was MG42. He said it had terrific rate of fire and was intimidating. He did say that when being fired at those higher rates it was less than accurate. He said that our BAR was a great squad weapon and very accurate in right hands. The fact that it could be instantly firing as opposed to setting up etc. made it "handy".

I only wrote this because I know my dad was there when things like this meant something and paid a terrible price to learn these things.

[Jim Marshall]

This story is about a Kentucky National Guard unit that had trained from day 1 of it activation in the fall of 2001. as an NCO in the 617th. I know about the hard work and dication that that this unit put forth and that anybody that would try to take away what these soldiers did should be ashames of them themselfs. If I remember right several non-MP units where trained by the 617th and I was told by everybody that I talked to stated that we gave them the best training during there activation.I know every American Soldier that was there that day, I arrived apoximately 2 hours after the fight had ended. Why was all the Raven M-1114 on the side road shot all to hell. Why was it that 3 of Raven 42 member were wounded. So the Army does not no how to investigate an incident like this, I put my name on my Post who and what are you. why would you descrce your unit and the Army like this.